The ....NEW...United Air Lines....

R COLLINS · Post by **R COLLINS** » Fri May 13, 2005 11:21 pm

I can fully understand. Just the other day I was PIC on a cross country flight from MPJ to PSN. It was late in the afternoon and this particular route happens to be towards the south west.. The sun was beaming down and I was getting parched. After a couple of hours my butt was starting to ache and I couldn't get up and stretch since the co-pilot was asleep. I did the only thing I could, I called the passengers in the back over the intercom, and asked for a sip of water. The reply I recieved was not comforting. The galley was fresh out since the passengers had exhausted the entire supply, and informed me to bring my own on the next flight. I survived but I have a couple kids for sale, any takers.

jmbrwn · Post by **jmbrwn** » Sat May 14, 2005 2:02 am

"I really feel bad for the pilots at United. They work about 8 hours a week and earn over 200K a year. "

Walker, if you actually believe this, your pretty naive. You must believe everything anyone tells you. I invite anyone to come with me on my next 5 day domestic. I guarantee at the end of the trip, your ass will be dragging. I'm not comparing it to digging ditches...but it sure as hell isn't a high paying cake walk either. You must be one of those guys who thinks if the pilot has a heart attack, you'll just stroll up to the cockpit and save the day! Pllleeassseee!!! Give me a break.

blueldr · Post by **blueldr** » Sat May 14, 2005 4:15 am

Walker wrote:I really feel bad for the pilots at United. They work about 8 hours a week and earn over 200K a year. Do the math on that one. For many this is a part time job, outside of being pharmacists and veterinarians to name a few of their other jobs. I was given this information firsthand from one of the board of directors who actually has an interest in keeping a topheavy dinosaur from becoming a smoking heap. If they have any interest in keeping their hobby alive, maybe they should look at the big picture.

I sure hope you're being facetious. I'd hate to think that such an a--h--- had wormed his way into this group. Sounds about like an extremely jealous 85 hour T'Craft pilot in his third year on his student permit.

Mike Smith · Post by **Mike Smith** » Sat May 14, 2005 6:31 am

Walker,

I'd be happy to let you in the real life story of how an airline pilot works. Drop me a line on the private e-mail with your phone number and I'll answer any question you desire to ask about my duty days, days away from home, how I'm paid, how much I'm paid, and the price I pay for this priviledge of getting paid to fly (how this impacts my family life). I am a United Airbus A-320 Co-pilot with 8 years at the company. I was only 60 days away from getting furloughed when the company decided to stop furloughing. I love flying airplanes, but the bit about working 8 hours a week is not my reality ... just ask my wife and kids.

One fact that many people fail to appreciate is that airline pilots only get paid if the engines are running. Sooo, when I have a 12.5 hour duty day but only fly for 2.5 hours ... I only get paid for 2.5 hours (not 12.5 hours). And yes, this has happened, not often, but it does happen. I am an hourly employee, how many other hourly employees get paid like this? When I worked at restaurants in college I got paid the entire time I was on the clock, not just when people were being served. If a pilot is expected to work a 10-12 hour duty day but is only scheduled to fly 4-6 hours, then one can see that the hourly pay when he's working will be significantly higher than if the same pilot was getting paid for every hour while on duty.

Also, last month, on 2 of the trips I was scheduled to fly, they had a 31 hour layover on the middle day of a 3 day trip. So, in three days away from home I was only scheduled (by the company) to fly about 11.5 hours. Most people I know get about 8 hours of clock time per day, this would equal 24 hours in 3 days, I only logged 11.5. Now you can see that a pilots hourly pay would need to be a bit higher to make up for these company induced inefficiencies.

Flying airplanes for a living is certianly a labor of love. This means that if a person doesn't love flying then it's not really a great job. Given the amount of resources and effort I expended to get here, one would think I was a little bit "off my rocker" when compared to the time I currently put into my job. But I love flying and don't want to do anything else, so, I endure these bad times in hopes that times will improve as they usually do in this cyclical business.

I'm not mad at you Walker, but it does frustrate me when people get these half-truth stories and deduce that we are grossly overpaid. I haven't done it in a long time, but I wouldn't be surprised that if I added up all the "duty time" I had last month, my hourly pay would be less than my neighbor who is a truck driver. I don't live extravagantly, our 2 cars are 15 years old and 5 years old, my house is a modest 3 bedroom 2 bath and my kids go to public school. I spent 10 years in the Air Force before UAL and have been frugal enough to just barely afford this C-170A.
I am the sole provider for my family of 4. If you really believe I am as overpaid as you indicated, please e-mail me so we can talk and I can fill you in on the specific pay I'm getting from UAL.

Sincerely

c170b53 · Post by **c170b53** » Sun May 15, 2005 4:02 am

I'm not getting into who does what for what. Unfortunately I work in the airline business becaue I'm too stupid to do anything else. You only have to look at pilots and cruise pilots to know that flying in the big leagues is like any other pyramid scheme. Those in early do well, late to the game, not so much. Truth be told its not flying anymore, its a computer game and the computers are getting better. As for United employees I think its total nonsense how airline personnel have had their retirement savings in pension plans wiped out. Why anyone would get into this business now is beyond me.

jmbrwn · Post by **jmbrwn** » Sun May 15, 2005 12:02 pm

"You only have to look at pilots and cruise pilots to know that flying in the big leagues is like any other pyramid scheme. .. Truth be told its not flying anymore, its a computer game and the computers are getting better."

For those who don't know, a 'cruise pilot' is a person who has minimal flight time/experience hired into that position only. He is not allowed to manipulate the controls...only sit in seat at cruise and operate the radios...thus he's paid considerably less than a 'real pilot' saving the airline money. Only used on international flights which are augmented by several pilots because of length. No U.S. airline that I know of uses cruise pilots. I met one on a layover in Mumbai several years ago. He worked for KLM...after a few rounds, he confessed he had only 300hrs total time...he was cruise pilot on 747-400. For those guys who support foreign ownership of U.S. airlines...this is the kind of pilots you'll have flying you around. But who cares right??...as long as the tickets are cheap. Again, you get what you pay for.
As for being a computer game...I hear that but disagree. It's a different kind of flying. At cruise, your on auto-pilot anyway...whether flying an old B727 or all glass A320. When it comes time to land, you turn auto-pilot off and use good old stick-n-rudder skills to hit the short, snow covered runway in a 25kt direct crosswind at LGA. You still have to be a good pilot to fly the new stuff. It's nice to have auto-land capability in you hip pocket to use when visibility is really down, but you rarely use it. But even that's not exactly easy. Your monitoring the auto-pilot the whole way down, and it has to do certain things at exactly certain times. If it doesn't, you have to disconnect and take over, sometimes mere feet and seconds from impact of runway. Always gets my heart rate up. It's not just push a button and go back to sipping coffee.
Is flying different than it was 30-40 years ago...yes. Is it safer...yes. Does it still take good piloting skills...yes.

Walker · Post by **Walker** » Sun May 15, 2005 8:51 pm

jmbrwn · Post by **jmbrwn** » Mon May 16, 2005 2:01 am

No contest....I'd bet on the airline pilot. Let's see...if your FAMILY is in the back of the airliner, you want the T-Craft guy to fly it and if your FAMILY is in the T-Craft you don't want the airline pilot to fly it.......OK

Walker · Post by **Walker** » Mon May 16, 2005 1:59 pm

jmbrwn · Post by **jmbrwn** » Mon May 16, 2005 9:53 pm

I'm hoping to make OSH too. Drinks are on me. I'm sure my 3 bouncer landing will make me current.
On an off topic....I've flown a friends RV8 from the back seat last year....this weekend got to taxi it around just to get a feel for it...very nice. He's going to add me to his insurance so I can fly it from the front seat. May be in trouble after that

Walker · Post by **Walker** » Mon May 16, 2005 11:03 pm

Post by **GAHorn** » Tue May 17, 2005 2:12 am

Walker wrote:... I was given this information firsthand from one of the board of directors who actually has an interest in keeping a topheavy dinosaur from becoming a smoking heap..

Well, I'll say this... about that...
There's something pretty "topheavy" about any corporation that's been run into the ground by it's managment....the self-same management that is virtually guaranteed their jobs and retirement and golden-parachutes...the self-same mgt that the courts will protect and will keep in power at the company ...even after they'd run the company into bankruptcy ...because the courts believe the mgt is the only folks who'll know how to save the the very company that same mgt bankrupted to begin with! Go figure!
Yep, the courts will keep those loser execs and board members because the courts themselves are ill equipped and incapable of actually saving the company. Yet those mgt types that caused the problems will be kept in power and will retain all their perks ....while the real employees get the shaft and lose their retirements and jobs.
(Or has nobody noticed that the board members and executives have a very different retirement program that they seem to have funded very adequately at the same time they were bankrupting the company and the employees retirement systems?)
Walker, I feel like your previous comments were ill-informed and inflammatory against fellow pilots. Of course a board member will claim only he is virtuous. IN fact, HE's the problem! Why is that he's only recently sitting up and paying attention? Why didn't he apply his wonderful expertise long ago? And why, if he's so smart, didn't he notice things were'nt exactly going well....despite the fact that he's one of those few who actually had access to all the financial information?

In my opinion, the mgt is the ones the courts need to keep on hand by court order for the purpose of advising and assisting an entirely new cadre of mgt who have a record of success informed about past business practices. And they should be kept on hand at no cost to the company. ...and their own retirement plans should be tied to the successful rescue of the company and the employee's retirement plans. My 2 cents.

c170b53 · Post by **c170b53** » Tue May 17, 2005 3:21 am

Sounds like Northwest is about to go after their own people next.

Post by **GAHorn** » Tue May 17, 2005 4:10 am

c170b53 wrote:Sounds like Northwest is about to go after their own people next.

Yep. Just today I had two furoughed NW pilots, and furloughed 2 AA pilots in the sim, working for fractional operators, trying to pay the bills while hoping their airlines don't go under. Meanwhile, a half-dozen AA pilots have contacted me asking if there's any way I could help them get hired at our training facility because they're afraid AA is on it's last legs. (This sword has two edges.....it also prevents GA pilots from getting jobs that they view as long-term personal commitments temporarily obtained by airline guys that are hoping to be only temporary....and when the airline types go back to the airline the GA guys get the left-overs. In short, the entire industry suffers. I feel grateful to even have a job.)