Comparing Taildraggers

markeg1964 · Post by **markeg1964** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:28 am

I earned my private last summer in my 170A. So far it is the only plane I have flown so I canâ€™t offer much advice on your question. However, I can say I had a blast learning to fly in my 170. And both my instructor and mechanic have commented multiple times what a joy it is to fly. Iâ€™m with the prior poster who recommended learning on whichever plane you decide to get.

I also agree with the guy who said he enjoys doing slips in his 170. I would not rule out the 170 or 170A solely based on smaller flaps. It is a lot of fun to put the 170 into a full slip on final. Just be sure to warn your passengers beforehand

Iâ€™m sure whichever plane you choose you will have a blast just as I have.

tshort · Post by **tshort** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:28 am

Ditto for me on the slips in the 170 (I have a ragwing).
You can really crank it over and come down fast on final. Who needs bigger flaps ?!

All classic taildraggers are great. If you think you want a 170, another reason to start there is that you can avoid paying sales / use tax (depending on your state) for an "extra" airplane along the way.

T.

Post by **GAHorn** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:00 pm

Just to clarify a point.... the 170 B-model may also be slipped. Just not with full flaps.

AKGrouch · Post by **AKGrouch** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:58 pm

I agree with the posts on slipping. It's fun to do, especially considering how far to the side the bird will slip. Just remember not to do like a lot of cessna drivers. Learn and practice slips both to the right and to the left. A lot of the cessna pilots I know will only slip one way.....strange.

Post by **Bruce Fenstermacher** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:59 pm

gahorn wrote:Just to clarify a point.... the 170 B-model may also be slipped. Just not with full flaps.

I'm trying hard to remember were, any were I ever saw a restriction against slipping a B model with full flaps. There such a restriction for the 172.

Granted slipping a B model with full flaps is not a smart thing to do though I've cautiously done it at altitude and slipping with full flaps should never really be necessary. I just can't remember seeing the restriction.

Paul-WI · Post by **Paul-WI** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:13 pm

LANDING.
LANDPLANE AND SKIPLANE
LANDING.
Normal Landing.
(1) Wing Flaps â€” fourth notch (40Â°) below 100 m.p.h.
(2) Normal glide â€” 70 m.p.h.(wing flaps down).
(3) The flaps on the 170 allow steep, well controlled approaches
making slips unnecessary. Slips with full flaps are to be avoided because if the slip is extreme enough at a relatively high airspeed, the airflow is disrupted over the tail surface resulting in a sudden and steep, downward
pitch of the nose.

Not recommended as per owner's manual.

Paul

doug8082a · Post by **doug8082a** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:38 pm

Also placarded on the flap handle. "Avoid slips with full flaps" as I recall.

B model IPC Fig. 68 item 72, page 113, p/n 0510188

lowNslow · Post by **lowNslow** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:48 pm

doug8082a wrote:Also placarded on the flap handle. "Avoid slips with full flaps" as I recall.

B model IPC Fig. 68 item 72, page 113, p/n 0510188

This placard was installed by Cessna but is not required per Type Cert. so some airplanes my not have it.

Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:49 am

So while not wise slipping with full flaps is not specifically prohibited in a B model.

Let me repeat the important part.

Slipping a B model with full flaps is NOT A WISE (but legal) maneuver.

iowa · Post by **iowa** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:20 am

i have flow the following TD'ers.
they are listed in order of hardest to easiest for me:

christen eagle
c140
DC3
RV 6
taylorcraft
j3 cub
c180
c170A

the c140, my first airplane, and the 1st TD, was very touchy
even with the 4" extentions on the wheel.

the c170A, my current airplane (other than my wrecked L-4B)
was the most docile
dave

SteveF · Post by **SteveF** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:06 am

Have read where â€œslips with full flaps are not recommendedâ€ for years. Also slipped Cessnaâ€™s with full flaps all the time. Always thought this meant they are not prohibited but only just not recommended.

Practicing forced landings in my 170 during or just after base to final turn I was a little high with full flaps so put in a little slip. I learned to fly in cubs and love slips.

Nose drops to what looks like straight down and I find myself literally standing on the rudder peddles thinking this is not good. I could move the control column back and forth with no resistance. It felt like it was detached from the elevator.

Just as quickly, lasted between two and four seconds but definitely seemed like a lifetime, there started to be resistance in the column again and the nose started to rise back toward level flight. Fortunately I donâ€™t think I lost more than a hundred feet during the whole experience.

I am now a believer and in this case a quick learner so have never slipped with full flaps again.
Also try to tell people of the experience so they can take the warning that slips with full flaps are not recommended to mean slips with full flaps are prohibited, at least near the ground!

cessna170bdriver · Post by **cessna170bdriver** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:21 am

N9149A wrote:So while not wise slipping with full flaps is not specifically prohibited in a B model.

Let me repeat the important part.

Slipping a B model with full flaps is NOT A WISE (but legal) maneuver.

The MOST important part is that if you try it below 300 feet or so, it will most likely be the last maneuver you ever perform, legal or otherwise... Like SteveF, I speak from experience (initially gained by lack of knowledge). About a year or so after I bought my airplane, I found myself on short final with full flaps about 300 feet AGL and almost over the end of the runway, so I reverted to my J-3 days and added a slip to the mix. The next thing I knew was that the horizon had disappeared out of the top of the windshield. I recovered JUST in time for a flare AT the threshold. If you already have full flaps and still need to slip, a go-around would be the best recovery.

BTW Bruce, are you carrying an owner's manual from an A-Model or B-Model? Your serial number may say A-model, but your wings and tail say B, if I remember correctly.

Miles

Post by **GAHorn** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:58 am

lowNslow wrote:
doug8082a wrote:Also placarded on the flap handle. "Avoid slips with full flaps" as I recall.

B model IPC Fig. 68 item 72, page 113, p/n 0510188
This placard was installed by Cessna but is not required per Type Cert. so some airplanes my not have it.

The CAA (FAA) Approved Flight Manual (AFM) is required equipment to be onboard the aircraft and it's limitations must be observed. The AFM, Notes, Item 6 states, "Avoid sideslips with full flap (40') extension."

All flaps provide additional lift at a point near the aft portion of the wing's chord. The airplane has a CG forward of the Center of Lift (CL). The tail provides a downward lift which, like a lever/fulcrum, uses the fuselage to leverage the forward CG about the CL fulcrum. This keeps the nose from falling.
The flaps, when deployed, also create a down-wash of air immediately forward of the horizontal tail. This has the effect of increasing the angle-of-attack (AOA) of the tail (which is producing downward-lift) and brings that tail closer to a stall. (And is the reason the B-model has larger, balanced elevators.)
A sideslip will blank off the relative wind on the downwind-side-of-the-slipped fuselage... thereby blanking off that portion of the horizontal tail. In other words... in a B-model the increased-area-and-effectiveness of those large flaps will destroy the effectiveness of one-half of the tail due to a blanking effect. The remaining side will be much nearer to a tailplane stall due to the increased AOA caused by the flap downwash.
A sudden downward pitching moment may be inescapable and uncontrollable.

It is not a disadvantage of a B-model. It is merely a difference. The B-models larger and more effective flaps are nice and they increase aircraft performance. But they have handling differences that must be understood by the pilot and accounted for.
Either use the full flaps..... or slip it.... but not both. (And a B-model...in comparison with and in the same scenario as other 170's... does not need to be slipped with full flaps to accomplish steep descents. It will exceed the capability of earlier models because of it's larger, slotted, Fowler's ... and will equal or exceed earlier model's performance in slips as well, when slipped with only 20 or 30 flaps. Just don't exceed 30-degrees of flaps if you intend to slip it.

Post by **Bruce Fenstermacher** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:49 pm

gahorn wrote:The CAA (FAA) Approved Flight Manual (AFM) is required equipment to be onboard the aircraft and it's limitations must be observed. The AFM, Notes, Item 6 states, "Avoid sideslips with full flap (40') extension."

George I agree with all you say. But the word avoid is not the same as prohibited though in the '50s the intent may have been the same.

SteveF's description is pretty accurate and make no mistake the ground you hit will be PROHIBITIVE.

Miles from a strictly legal stand point I'm required to carry the A model AFM as that is what my airplane is licensed as and there is no further restrictions or additions to the required AFM by the paperwork authorizing the changes to the airframe. I'm a bit smarter than that and do not slip my airplane with full flaps. I also carry the B model AFM to cover more bases should it become an issue.

Post by **GAHorn** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:45 pm

What part of "avoid" is not violated by a deliberate slip?