Aluminum vs. paint for performance & weight

[susang777]

It's not going to be too much longer before we're going to need another paint job, and we're probably going to use a more original paint scheme.

Does anybody know whether keeping the airplane mostly bare aluminum with some paint for decoration and markings vs. paint all over makes any difference on the amount of weight it can carry and/or its performance?

I know I've seen some information out there about how to polish the aluminum and keep it in good shape, but I didn't see it in this section. Is it very hard to do that vs. the keeping the paint looking good?

[Dave Clark]

Susan

It's far easier to maintain a painted plane. I owned a polished Cesna 195 and can speak with some authority on that. The frequency of polishing is dependant on the climate and usage. If it gets rained on the polish job is no longer fresh looking. I cleaned mine with GlassWax which worked ok. I would never have left that plane tied down outside at our Summer home here at the Island in the salt air environment however we do have a nieghbor who comes in for a few days at a time with a beautiful polished 180. It is a hangared plane otherwise. At the flyins in AZ when a gaggle of 170's show up it's amazing how many of them are polished compared to those in the Northwest. The desert is a marvelous place for a polished plane.

I've heard it's 20 to 40 pounds lighter for a polished airplane. Of course that adds to your useful load.

You might not even have the ability to polish it Once the paint is stripped you could find all sorts of minor skin problems that would prevent a nice polish jobThey are beautiful but my opinion is that it's for a show plane, not one you want to use all the time.

[zero.one.victor]

I seem to recall that the Cessna 150 I used to own had the paint job listed on the factory weight & balance sheet,but I can't recall what the weight was. Anybody have any SOLID info (not guesses) on what a paint job weights on a 170? Or anything else,for that matter?
Dave,you're right,Greg's 180 is a beauty,and it seems to look good every time I see it. I don't know how much time he spends maintaining that polish job,though.

Eric

[doug8082a]

I'd be interested in some solid weight umbers as well. I believe I'm carrying around two paint jobs and that might be why my plane weighs more than most of those mentioned in a previous thread on a/c weights despite the similar configuration.

[GAHorn]

Airplanes gain more weight due to dirt in the belly and unnecessarily-carried junk than due to paint. The factory figure for full paint was never available for the 170 since they were never fully painted at the factory, but the figures for the 172 were 22 lbs added at station 24.
If your airplane had a seaplane kit, it was even more due to internal corrosion proofing.
My airplane is polished, and has rec'd minimal upkeep, but I keep it in a hangar and NEVER wash it with soap. (I use WD-40 emulsion with water, although kersene/jet fuel would work just as well.) After 4 years, it'll need a touch-up polish this year. I haven't saved any weight, however, due to it's internal epoxy/polyamide anti-corrosion paint. My empty weight is 1304 (prior to 30# of survival junk/tools.)

[funseventy]

The best hard number is from my recent stripping. 26 lbs. I believe the original stripes were under the paint so the 22 lbs that George mentioned is probably right on. I told the paintshop that I was planning on polishing, so if it didn't come off leave it and I would fight with it. They wire brushed a whole lot of the airplane. I will be painting it now.

Susan,
I have 20 years of polishing a 195. Go polish someone elses before you make up your mind. I a high humidity area you might need to polish it twice a year, plus the glass wax in between polishings. YUCK!

George,
Factory corrosion proofing for Cessna I don't think started until '64. Even after '64ish it was an option Float Kit A was and Float Kit B wasn't. As I remember. My factory floatkitted 180 from 1956 was bare.

[Dave Clark]

Any knowing if the 22 lbs was for the older Lacquer paint? Air dry enamel is heavier than lacquer, Urethanes are heavier than air dry due to lower solvent content and cross linking cures and it also depends on the brand and application. A good epoxy primer for under urethanes is going to be a bit heavier than the old Zinc Chromate used under lacquers and air dry enamels. So how much does the paint weigh on my plane? I have no idea but George points out correctly many of us carry enough unneeded baggage to offset the weight of a paint job.

If my 170 was in AZ all year where it is low humidity and hangared I'd like it to be polished because it is striking to see a straight well polished airplane. And I'd only have to polish it once a year. If you live in an area that is wet or no hangar you'll be fighting it all the time or just give up on it and let it look dull and dirty.

[susang777]

Well that was very helpful. Thank you! It doesn't sound like weight is very much of an issue. It's probably not a performance issue either, then. (Not that I thought it was, but thought I might as well ask.)

I guess it depends on whether we are hangaring it when we paint it (we're on a waiting list now), and whether it's a whole lot different timewise to wax vs. polish. (We wax ours once or twice a year already. Please don't tell me that's bad for it...)

And, of course, whether we really want it to be polished or not. I don't have a strong preference in the looks department. I used to prefer paint, but I like the polished look equally as well now.

Thanks again for the advice, as always!

[Alterfede]

Im with the doubt too susan, i really like the polished look, but i know that will be better for my project of doing bush flyin in patagonia in the next years have it painted (with a good paint job). Other problem i have is that now my job is getting all my time, and i dont have much time for flying, iamagine for polishing and waxing it.

[zero.one.victor]

26 pounds is not an insignificent amount of weight when it comes to an airplane,and we all know that less weight equals more performance. And that more weight equals less performance.
What else can you remove from your airplane to lose that much weight? If you're like most of us,you already have minimal avionics & instrumentation,so it comes down to interior & "stuff". Most of us carry "stuff" on board cuz we expect to need it--chocks,tiedowns,tools,oil,blanket &/or jacket,airport guides,etc. Which 26 pounds of "stuff" are ya gonna leave at home on your next trip?
Or will you go out with less-than-full tanks? That's an option many choose. Lotsa people run out of gas too--in my opinion,one of the most avoidable reason for an accident.
For a 2-person trip,consider removing the rear seat--that's worth 32 pounds according to my scale.
I like the bush plane or Alaska look--bare aluminum (unpolished),with the top of the upper cowl painted black to reduce glare.
All that said,I will admit that my ragwing sports a full paint job,which I don't plan on removing any time soon.
Just a little food for thought,and discussion.

Eric

[spiro]

hard to believe, but near as I can figure it my 170 gained 97# in paint and powdercoat. 4 years and a rebuild between scale weighings, but I think I kept pretty good track of everything else inbetween - paint was the only thing I couldn't directly weigh.

this was a complete dissassemble, strip, etch, alodine, 2-3 coats epoxy primer, 3+ coats polyurethane. I probably won't lay it on so thick next time...

polished aluminum by far looks the best, but mine looks pretty damn good, and will for a long time. I don't like to wash planes (find a rainstorm) and I sure as hell don't want to polish one.

[russfarris]

Like George, my 170 is polished with the original paint scheme. I hadn't completely polished it until just before Sun-N-Fun this year. It had been over three years, and still looked pretty good. It is hangared, however. I wouldn't dream of a polished airplane kept outside.

My advice, which is free by the way, is to paint it. Use an original factory scheme, it will help the re-sale value IMHO. Some of the "custom" paint jobs I've seen are hideous beyond belief; I still haven't gotten over a purple and green Stinson at Lakeland this year!

I have a collection of old aviation magazines from the 1950s, and on the cover of one is a factory new 1950 170A painted yellow overall with black trim. My gut feeling is Cessna did, on special order, paint the entire airplane, for a price of course. Light grey looks quite nice, and simulates the original bare metal better than silver paint, which looks like...silver paint.

Since it's an old airplane, I love the look of the large 20 inch wing numbers, and I have them on mine. Don't listen to the paranoid folks that worry about them being too visable. The reason the FAA went to the 12 inch numbers on the fuselage side is because the wing numbers can only be quickly read from one angle (coming toward you.) The side numbers are always right side up! Of course, the 170 is old enough to qualify for only the small numbers on the tail, which they all came with originally.

Good luck what ever you do, keep us posted - Russ Farris

[flyguy]

Polishing out a painted airplane carries an extra work penalty along with the constant need for special care of the exterior of that animal. Stripping for polish may reveal flaws that have been covered up by the prepping for a paint job. At todays market value I doubt that polishing out a painted airplane would be cost effective. It has to be a labor of love to punish yourself with the extra work it requires to do it right. I know they are beautiful but each hour spent polishing is one that is not spent flying. A really good paint job will cost $3000-$5000 while polishing will only cost minimal $ but numerous hours on the handle of the Cyclo polisher and lots of added laundry bills and hand cleaner!

While I was at TWA there was a program instituted to help the company save money. One of the suggestions was to eliminate the cost of re-painting planes at the time they required it. We polished a Boeing 727 (ala American Airlines) and charted the cost savings. Weight of the paint on the Boeing 727 was not as much as factory had estimated and so aircraft performance was not enhanced that much. The extra effort in manhours to polish was not too much beyond priming and painting but cost savings were nil. The bird was spectacular in polished natural aluminum (we dubbed her "THE NAKED LADY") with red trim, but company heads decided that white paint with red "TWA" and trim was more visible and less costly.

I would go along with Russ, but qualify, "If it is painted move along with a new paint job. If it is polished and you can afford the extra care required, keep on polishing for as long as you can". (George's '53 is nice but he has not gotten to "GIT REALLY DIRTY" polishing yet because of living in a dry climate and having a wonderful hanger in which to house 'YS).

IMHO, those who can keep the originallity will enhance the $ value in a small way but add to the pleasure of those who get to view the "CLASSIC LOOK". There is no way to keep that "look" for an extended period of time without eventually having to do the "DIRTY WORK"! If there was an easy way of keeping them sparkling bright, there would be lots more "Naked Ladys" around.

Russ, I wish you had made it back so I could have shot some photos of that beautiful polish job. I need lots of inspiration like that to get our "OLE DELTA" looking like that again.

OLE GAR

[doug8082a]

A really good paint job will cost $3000-$5000 while polishing will only cost minimal $ but numerous hours on the handle of the Cyclo polisher and lots of added laundry bills and hand cleaner!

Gar, where are you finding paint jobs at those prices??? I'd be interested in finding a shop at that price. Up here in the Northeast I get quotes in the $7500 - $10,000 range. The only local $5000 paint job I've seen up here on a C172 had sags in the paint, bad masking and overspray, and (after two years) the paint is starting to come off. $5000 for a "really good" paint job? Tell me where and sign me up!