I0-360 STC discussion?

[marathonrunner]

I did a little research to see qhat a wild guess would be for this IO 360 installation. I recently bought paperwork for putting in an aeroCommander front door. It was paperwork only and the price was 4000.00. I am going to cut that in half and assume that maybe the STC could be bought for 20,000.00 divided by maybe ten users would be 2000.00 for just the paperwork. Based on that here is what I think a kit might cost.

Paperwork 2000.00
Baffle kit Airforms2233.00
Fuel pump Airborne1000.00 dukes was 1300.00
0516009-18 header tank500.00 used price on Ebay. I would recommend making one and getting PMA
Engine mount and PMA5000.00 just a guess it could easily be more and based on 10 being built as it needs to have a fixture built to do them
Spinner and bulkhead1300.00 I was told the spinner from Cessna is 700.00 and bulkhead 600.00
Misc. hardware lines
induction airbox etc.2000.00

Kit price 14,033.00

Engine new TCM............................................................................. 41,317.00
Core Barnstormers..............................................................................4000.00
O.H. plus accessories...................................................................... 28,000.00
O.H. and core...................................................................................32,000.00 (approx)
Propeller McCauley 3500.00 for core on Barnstormers so maybe.....6-8000.00???
Propeller governor not sure maybe.................................................... 2000.00 for overhauled no core
So overhauled engine with governor and accessories....................... 34000.00
Propeller............................................................................................ 6000.00
Kit................................................................................................... 14,033.00
Labor 100 hours at 80.00....................................................................8000.00

Total................................................................................................62,033.00

This is probably a low shop figure but would include not just intallation but fuel system set up, strobing propeller on test flight and adjusting governor, new weight and balance and equipment list so re weigh aircraft.

Does this sound about right or too high or too low? I winged it on some of those figures and I am sure deals are to be had so some savings are able to be found but this was just some internet searching and a few phone calls to reputable shops not trunkers.

[marathonrunner]

Darn, I used spaces and lined up all the numbers but when I posted it took them out...sorry about that


If your a moderator with to much time you can do it pretty close with the space command (see top) or anyone can do it using periods (see lower) instead of spaces. The problem is computers ARE NOT typewriters and the font is not a fixed width font

[marathonrunner]

I think it is o.k. too and I just based it on IF the STC could be bought from XPmods?? and, IF 10 people would do the conversion. I know of a shop in Portland Oregon as well that could make and PMA the mount. Problem is getting anyone to do onesy twosy deals. You need volume to entice anyone to make parts. If not the first mount would be very expensive considering you need to build a fixture to make them.

Of course then I would need to borrow one for flight test for floats again as 15 percent is 3 H.P. shy of 210 for the 180 H.P. engine.

[marathonrunner]

Ok I got an email back from a member. The STC paperwork for the XP and the mount drawings are available for 1500.00 each time a person buys from him. For another 1000.00 you can get the jig to build the mount. I would say get a shop to build a jig and get a PMA and it will be less expensive in the long run. Also I do not know the price but he told me the Maule header tank is available instead of the Cessna 172 version.

One other obstacle is that the tanks have to be modified for under wing venting. Mainly just time but also the check valve for the tanks or tank if only one needs to be modified.

The price sounds about correct of around 65,000.00 per conversion but that can be up or down depending on price of engine, prop, governor, backplate and spinner. I would think putting a kit together for everything except but the engine, prop, governor and spinner would make this easier to accomplish.

What is the thinking out there of the people that seem to want this conversion? Like in the movie "Outlaw Josie Wales" when Clint Eastwood came out of the grocery store with two bags of groceries and there were like 3 rebels standing there who recognized him. He said "You gonna draw or, stand there whistlin Dixie?" Gotta love that movie...so anyone up for pursuing this?

[blueldr]

I would have a hard time remembering the costs I incurred in my conversion, but I know that I used to use the figure of $35,000 when asked. I did all of my own work except for a few outside things like aluminum welding, and I scrounged a lot of stuff from the salvagers. I bought a few new parts, but not much.
I invite anyone that is interested in his conversion to give me a call. I would enjoy offering what ever I can in the way of advice or explaining how some things were done.
I can't offer much via email since I do not type and text messages are extremely tedious for me.

Dick Lemmon ---- 916-635-5566

[marathonrunner]

OK it looks like you can pretty much do the following
1. Hawk XP firewall forward except for mount
2. Acquire mount
3. Modify fuel system for under wing venting...might be a good time to add the 172 tanks for more capacity
4. Install the instrumentation needed for a constant speed prop ...manifold pressure and tachometer probably fule pressure gauge too
5. Acquire the STC paperwork
6. Re weigh aircraft, new equipment list, set up fuel system, storbe prop and adjust governor.

Anything else? The 65,000.00 seems to be a fair ballpark figure if you get a lot of used parts. A kit could be made but then you are talking all new parts. this would not include new fuel tanks and it might be a bit more time involved with the replumbing as I am sure you need to remove the tanks to modify for under wing venting.

Water is fine anyone want to jump in?

[c170b53]

I scrounged a lot of stuff from the salvagers. I bought a few new parts

I'm shocked and shocked again, I would have never guessed
I think some of us liked being asked how many 170's we owned before painting our planes.

[GAHorn]

Realistically speaking, ...this sort of modification/investment is superb for: 1. Someone who actually uses the airplane for meaningful work (tho' not for profit), 2. Someone who can afford to fly for pleasure a significant amount of hours travelling great distances (including paying for the cost in hours & fuel of those operatons) to justify the investment)*, 3. Someone who has inherited more money than they imagine spending in their remaining lifetimes.

I think that is why the mod is not more prolific than it is. By the time someone figures the cost vs performance/limitations out, they figure they could have a 180/185 and carry more, faster and, since the 180/185 is less highly modified and more supportable, retain greater re-sale value.

I would love to do this to my airframe when I retire in two more years and if my ship comes in. (Of course, by then I'll probably want different (articulating) seating, and bluetooth entertainment, Hooker-Harnesses, new avionics with ADS-B, and cargo-convertible rear-cabin, and my moniker will have to change to "the originality-nut, originally".

* Arbitrarily figuring $100/hr direct costs amortized over 1,000 hours operations (to harvest the investment) would add another $100,000 spent to gain the benefits of the modification. Lessee now, $170,000 and only ten years to enjoy it if I can keep the medical...add the hotel and meal costs of the travels...figuring retirement income....ought plus ought, and carry the six.... (you only live once )

And I'll have to polish it again.

Marathonrunner, I'm glad you've begun your planning because that'll make the job so much easier/faster on me once you've done a few. (Can you figure-in a re-polish job?)

[marathonrunner]

George

I have no intention of putting this on my plane. I was just trying to show everyone how expensive this would be and time consuming as well. While it is possible I am with you on the 180/185 route. Much more sense and affordable. Had I known what it was going to take to get an STC in hours and dollars for the Aerocets i would never have begun it. I know I will never even recoup the out of pocket costs let alone the thousands of unpaid hours over the 3 plus years. If one wants to get an STC I have been told and know from personal experience it will be many tens of thousands of dollars and probably 3 plus years. I suppose some can be had for less depending on the STC. When you are doing major installations though you will have a lot of hoops to jump through.

[bagarre]

If only the 180 had a pretty round tail

I don't know why but, I just don't see the 180 as an attractive airplane as I do the 170 or even a straight tail 172TD (Tail Dragger, not Turbo Diesel)
I think I'd get a Mooney before a 180 but that's just me.

[marathonrunner]

It just might be easier and less expensive to put a round tail on the 180.

[bagarre]

HAH! I never thought about that

All I really want is a 170 that goes 170mph or a 195 that only burns 8gph...is that too much to ask??

But, instead of the TCM IO-360, maybe we should be holding out for one of those new Turbo Diesels people are talking about.

[marathonrunner]

doesn't the starship enterprise run on tri lithium crystals?

[n2582d]

But, instead of the TCM IO-360, maybe we should be holding out for one of those new Turbo Diesels people are talking about.

This one?

[johneeb]

But, instead of the TCM IO-360, maybe we should be holding out for one of those new Turbo Diesels people are talking about.

This one?

I was really interested in how neat this conversion was until I say the pictures of the wing being rebuilt sitting flat on a pair of saw horses!