The International Cessna^® 170 Association

Cessna painted them.

no, they don't need to be painted. All single engine Cessnas come from the factory with vinyl N#'s (we're a dealer so I just walked out to the ramp to make sure I wasn't mis-remembering it). They don't just peel off, it isn't like using duct tape. We also just brought back a bunch of King Airs from overseas that we put temporary vinyl N# sheets on and got no complaints from any country along the way, including the FAA here as they are flying with these decals until they sell (I suppose those fall under the temp provision of the AC). And when those airplanes originally were new and we sent them overseas, they had vinyl numbers from the Beech factory.

you can buy ready made numbers or the reverse, masks for paint, from many vendors. here's one for instance - http://www.moodyaero.com/moody_numbers.html

HA wrote:no, they don't need to be painted. All single engine Cessnas come from the factory with vinyl N#'s (we're a dealer so I just walked out to the ramp to make sure I wasn't mis-remembering it). They don't just peel off, it isn't like using duct tape.

Part 45.421(c)(1) wrote:Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, be painted on the aircraft or affixed by any other means insuring a similar degree of permanence;

HA wrote:We also just brought back a bunch of King Airs from overseas that we put temporary vinyl N# sheets on and got no complaints from any country along the way, including the FAA here as they are flying with these decals until they sell (I suppose those fall under the temp provision of the AC). And when those airplanes originally were new and we sent them overseas, they had vinyl numbers from the Beech factory.

Part 54.21(d) wrote: The aircraft nationality and registration marks may be affixed to an aircraft with readily removable material if—

(1) It is intended for immediate delivery to a foreign purchaser;
(2) It is bearing a temporary registration number; or
(3) It is marked temporarily to meet the requirements of § 45.22(c)(1) or § 45.29(h) of this part, or both.

Funny how the words TAPE and DECAL are used exactly once each in the document and not defined in any way.

The concept in this part of the document is the PERMANENCE of the markings, NOT the materials of which they are composed.

Cutout vinyl sticky back letters ARE NOT TAPE. They are indeed decals as defined in my Webster's dictionary. Decals are a way of transferring images, graphics, or text to another surface. Tape is defined as a slender ribbon or band. Like a roll of electrical tape. Or the tape at the end of a running race. Or magnetic tape. Defined by shape, not material or what type of adhesive, if any. Look it up. The FAA doesn't provide an alternate or more specific definition.

I cannot see anything wrong with sticky vinyl lettering as long as the adhesive is good. I believe that it conforms with BOTH the letter and the spirit of this regulation.

I'm not changing a thing.

Just a question...

Has anyone here ever been violated by the fuzz for missing backseats without a 337, sticky vinyl numbers that aren't painted, or putting (6 ply) 8.00x6 tires on Cleveland wheels?


Assume for this that proper w&b is done.

This is another case where technology has surpassed the FARs. At least the definitions that are in the FARs. And so once again it's left up to the interpretation of the individual inspector and his interpretation of the FARs.

I believe I've seen many aircraft today with vinyl registration numbers. I have thought nothing of it because they look like they should be there and meet the regulations.

If I had vinyl registration numbers and I was questioned by an FAA inspector I would simply explained that they are temporary until my paint scheme is completed.

falco wrote:Just a question...
Has anyone here ever been violated by the fuzz for missing backseats without a 337, sticky vinyl numbers that aren't painted, or putting (6 ply) 8.00x6 tires on Cleveland wheels?
Assume for this that proper w&b is done.

I have never heard of anyone being violated by the FAA. However I have heard of this being questioned by IA inspectors which is how they become subjects on our forum.

I have found that a good many IA's are, in my opinion, considerably concerned with self protection on "Nit Picky" items.

Bruce Fenstermacher wrote:This is another case where technology has surpassed the FARs. At least the definitions that are in the FARs. And so once again it's left up to the interpretation of the individual inspector and his interpretation of the FARs.

This is the problem, Bruce.

The definitions of many of these terms are not actually in the FARs and thus left to interpretation. ( In my dealings with another behemoth of a federal agency, the FDA, we always have a definitions section that provides unambiguous meaning to words so that the meaning of said words cannot change with time and is NOT left to individual inspectors determination of meaning or intent.)

Now we have FAA inspectors trying to fit the regulations and terms on which they were recently trained onto documents that were written before the inspector was born. There was no need for Cessna to call the rear seat optional or standard equipment on our type certificate 65 years ago. It wasn't the practice at that time. Yet some inspector freelances an excessively strict opinion that in this case it is a major alteration because it says its a 4 place airplane on the TC, even though every other four place Cessna single lists the backseat as standard (not required) equipment.

Sorry for the rant and the thread creep, but this freelance interpretation of regs is one of those things that is killing this industry.

Sure if you let it....I'll pass on further, back seat discussion but all markings on my plane are decals. They're permanent and as good as paint if not better. So sue me, threaten me and impress me with the regulations. If I had used plastic electrical tape as a substitute then maybe they have a beef.
Times change as does techniques, if you're following the intent of the regulations then I think you're good. All laws and regulations can be interpreted no different than the usual always having to interpret what the better half is saying. I'm sure you may run into a new model trying to save the world of aviation, likely his boss is smarter and sooner or latter he'll get there too.

Arayana, to the IDIOT that told you that you have to use permanent decals (there's no such thing) that aren't removable, I would point out that paint is not permanent and is removeable. Wouldn't that mean that paint is also not legal? I would consult your local FSDO and not the local village idiot for advice.

To get a relatively reliable answer, one might have to consult a number of FSDOs and average out the answers. It's not at all unheard of to find divergent answers from different FSDOs on a number of subjects. As a matter of fact, it is not at all uncommon to find that members of a given FSDO consult among themselves before giving an offisial answer for the group.

surrounded by idiots--- Trust me , I know the feeling.

FredMa wrote:Arayana, to the IDIOT that told you that you have to use permanent decals (there's no such thing) that aren't removable, I would point out that paint is not permanent and is removeable. Wouldn't that mean that paint is also not legal? I would consult your local FSDO and not the local village idiot for advice.

Part 45.421(c)(1) wrote:Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, be painted on the aircraft or affixed by any other means insuring a similar degree of permanence;

Paint can be cleaned off with MEK or lacquer thinner just like decals can. So, decals are of a similar degree of permanence as paint.

..at least until someone else doesn't think so.

How much contribution to the total thrust developed by the prop can be attributed to the portion populated by the vortilators? ...and, therefore, how much can the vortilators either help, or hurt, the propeller performance? (Answer: it's like snake oil.....it can only help prevent corrosion where it's applied.)

Sorry...couldn't restrain myself....