FAA Registration Information

[Greg Bockelman]

Side question but in the area of Aircraft Registration. Anyone know how long I have to submit the bill of sale and new registration paperwork? I could not even be asking the right question.


Justin

Out of curiosity, why would you wait?

[GAHorn]

If memory serves....90 days...or suffer a financial penalty.

[juredd1]

Well it has something to do with me trying to save up the green backs for the sale tax and the longer I wait to send in paperwork to the FAA the longer before my state gets their grubby hands on the registration update and demands my money.

Did I just say that out loud?

Justin

[voorheesh]

If you purchase an aircraft you should complete the bill of sale and register it immediately. I recommend doing this before you fly it. Part 47 of the FARs require it. My insurance agent once advised me that from a liability concern, the owner should comply with all the registration rules so as not to give the underwriter an excuse to deny coverage as in: "You are not the registered owner of this aircraft you are filing a claim for". I wanted to fly an aircraft home and did not have the paperwork available. You can download the bill of sale and application for registration from faa.gov and the pink copy in the airplane complies with 47. Maybe not a big deal but something to consider.

[juredd1]

The FAA approved form (don't recall the number at this moment) was filled out and the pink slip was put in the plane. The Bill of Sale was also filled out. So it's not that all the proper paperwork was not filled out it's just I was wondering the time frame it had to be mailed into the feds. As long as I have the proper paperwork the insurance can whine all they want. It's legally mine, I may mail it to the feds today and it be 3 months before it shows up as mine on the system so if that is what the insurance goes off of then anyone that buys a plane is in limbo for a few weeks at a minimum.

If I missed your point I apologize.

Justin

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

You can download the bill of sale and application for registration from faa.gov and the pink copy in the airplane complies with 47. Maybe not a big deal but something to consider.

You can download the bill of sale but you can not download Aircraft Registration Application, AC Form 8050-1. From FAA.GOV:

• The Aircraft Registration Application, AC Form 8050-1, is not available for download. You must use an original Aircraft Registration Application, AC Form 8050-1. We don't accept photocopies or computer-generated copies of this form. Aircraft Registration Applications may be obtained from the Aircraft Registration Branch or your local FAA Flight Standards District Office (FSDO). If you use a P.O. Box as a mailing address, you must also provide your street or physical location on the application.

As Harlow said, and it is printed right on the Bill of Sale:

Screen Shot 2013-09-13 at 3.28.06 PM.png

Title 49 requires registration before operation.

• 49 USC § 44101 - Operation of aircraft
  
  (a) Registration Requirement.— Except as provided in subsection (b) of this section, a person may operate an aircraft only when the aircraft is registered under section 44103 of this title.
  (b) Exceptions.— A person may operate an aircraft in the United States that is not registered—
  (1) when authorized under section 40103 (d) or 41703 of this title;
  (2) when it is an aircraft of the national defense forces of the United States and is identified in a way satisfactory to the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration; and
  (3) for a reasonable period of time after a transfer of ownership, under regulations prescribed by the Administrator.

In my search I could not find what the Administrator thought was a "reasonable period of time" that a person could operate an aircraft without it being properly registered.

[voorheesh]

The temporary registration/pink copy is valid for 90 days. If you delay submitting the application/bill of sale to FAA it may expire which means your grounded (assuming you want to follow the rules). Some guys just put another fresh pink copy in and work the system that way. Part 47 requires us to register our aircraft. It does not give a time limit but the assumption is that we should do it without delay. If you have an accident and there is no application on file with the FAA you could be at risk of a violation for operation without valid registration. Both NTSB and FAA check registration very early in accident investigations (in my experience, the regional offices that coordinate accident investigations do a registration check immediately). Insurance companies sometimes (not always) use little discrepancies like this to avoid being responsible for claims.

[Bill Hart]

This discussion brings up an interesting question. I once sold a 182 and the new owner didn't registar the airplane for years after he bought it. I found out by doing a search on the FAA data base. I asked a mutual friend to tell him it need to be registard as the FAA thought I still owned the airplane. It took several friendly request and one call to the FSDO before he finally resisterd the airplane in his name.

So my question is do any of you go and check to make sure any aircraft you sell are still in your name?

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

I've sold one plane. I assisted the new owner in filling out the registration form AND I mailed it to the FAA. You want to buy an airplane from me that is the way it's going down. This after bought a plane from someone who never changed the registration to his name. All the while a whole host of people flew it including I suspect paying to do so. Won't happen to an aircraft with my name on the registration.

[canav8]

Justin, The legal owner is the owner of record. Your paperwork that you have does not mean anything until it is recorded. That is a matter of fact. I can share with you a horror story of someone selling an airplane that got sued when the new owner went and crashed the plane and killed the passengers. The family of the passengers had my friend in court over him being the legal owner. You are not the legal owner till it is on file. FYI. Get the paperwork in or dont fly the plane. I have experience with this and my friend payed dearly.

A word to anyone selling an airplane. Make sure that the seller submits the paperwork to the FAA not the buyer in the transaction. D

PS. On another note, check to see that the owner paid the current personal property taxes in the area that the plane was based. There may be an unfiled tax lien on the plane that the title company missed. I have also seen new owners planes locked up because the county or state agency didnt know the plane was sold, and when the new owner came out to the plane one day, he found it locked up and impounded.

[T. C. Downey]

If memory serves....90 days...or suffer a financial penalty.

there is no penalty for late filing.

my 170 was sold twice before I tried to register it, the FAA made me chase down the two parties and get proper bills of sale before they would transfer the ownership to me, but it only cost me one filing fee.

[juredd1]

First off I appreciate the advice and I'm not saying the folks providing the warnings are not stating the facts of known horror stories but I don't understand why there is paperwork that shows the transfer if it's worthless. Same thing when you buy a used car. There is a bill of sale and it's still registered under the old owners name until I go to the Revenue office and get my tags for it (up to 45 days in Arkansas). So when most of you sell a plane are you not allowing the new owner take possession of the plane until the FAA receives the new paperwork and the new owner is listed as the register owner. Because the FAA could have it and I still not be the registered owner....right?

Just to cover my tail I will mail it on Monday but not sure I can hold off flying it the entire time until the FAA shows me as the registered owner. That could be weeks I suspect....Being a new tail wheel pilot I don't want to skip flying for 3-6 weeks. It may not take 3 weeks but I know the FAA ain't fast in most cases.

I will likely contact my insurance as well to see what they say.

Justin

[voorheesh]

You can fly the airplane while the FAA processes your application for registration. Your pink copy is a temporary registration that is valid for 90 days. The FAA takes time to process your application. As soon as it is logged, your aircraft will show up as "pending" in the FAA computer. The previous owner's name will be removed. They will review your bill of sale and check for liens and issue you a new registration that usually comes by mail before 90 days are up. The most common problems with registration changes involve the bill of sale. The names of the seller and the names of the buyer have to be exactly what is on the previous registration and the application for new registration. If there are any differences, the application will be returned for correction and this will extend it beyond 90 days. When the FAA issues your new registration, it will show up in the FAA computer under the name(s) of the new owner. Again, you can fly your airplane. Just mail your bill of sale, fee if any, and application for registration to the FAA. Really simple. Good luck and enjoy that new plane!

[GAHorn]

Harlow, those are good words.
I once got involved in a sale/purchase in which the airplane was registered to a company which had gone out of business 15 years earlier. The company was a sole proprietership when it acquired the aircraft, but later became a corporation. The son of the former proprietor, who became an officer of the former company, having had possession of the aircraft for the 15 years, signed the bill of sale and included his title. The bill of sale was rejected by FAA because a defunct company can not have an officer. (It can have a trustee, however. The aircraft first had to be declared abandoned, then confiscated by a local gov't...in this case the county, then transferred to the trustee, who then signed the bill of sale.) Whew!

Subsequently, it became known to creditors of the former company they had overlooked the asset when they settled the company's books. I don't recall how that story ended because I extracted myself from the transaction.

IRS can have a lien against personal property of which FAA may know nothing. ONe can do a Title Search, FAA can declare it clear, and the aircraft can go to the new owner...only for him to have to surrender it to IRS who had an undeclared lien on the airplane. This is why Title Insurance is a good idea.

I think you may have gotten lucky, Tom. (Just because they don't enforce a fine doesn't mean they didn't have the ability to do so.)

[canav8]

First off I appreciate the advice and I'm not saying the folks providing the warnings are not stating the facts of known horror stories but I don't understand why there is paperwork that shows the transfer if it's worthless. Same thing when you buy a used car. There is a bill of sale and it's still registered under the old owners name until I go to the Revenue office and get my tags for it (up to 45 days in Arkansas). So when most of you sell a plane are you not allowing the new owner take possession of the plane until the FAA receives the new paperwork and the new owner is listed as the register owner. Because the FAA could have it and I still not be the registered owner....right?

Just to cover my tail I will mail it on Monday but not sure I can hold off flying it the entire time until the FAA shows me as the registered owner. That could be weeks I suspect....Being a new tail wheel pilot I don't want to skip flying for 3-6 weeks. It may not take 3 weeks but I know the FAA ain't fast in most cases.

I will likely contact my insurance as well to see what they say.

Justin

Justin, as I said, It is the owner of record that is important. a piece of paper is not owner of record. This is FAA speak. Sorry, just the messenger. D