The International Cessna^® 170 Association

Boys....

I think we make much too much about flying tail draggers. Yes, there is a technique but it just ain't that difficult either.

I think the biggest problem is that the WWII vets who learned to fly in Stearmans, J-3s, or T-crafts and who taught many of us to fly are all retired. Most of the alleged tailwheel instructors that I know transitioned from C-150s and are still struggling from negative transference.

If I were king, I would make every new pilot read Stick and Rudder and then solo in a T-Craft or Luscombe. After that let them fly Moonies, Airabuses, Cirruses, whatever, just teach them to fly right in the beginning.

I have an old Boys Life book from the thirties that has an article with a great title, "Keep Your Nerve and Flying Speed!" Like most journalists, they got it half right but it was the right half.

pdb wrote:Boys....

I think we make much too much about flying tail draggers. Yes, there is a technique but it just ain't that difficult either.

I think the biggest problem is that the WWII vets who learned to fly in Stearmans, J-3s, or T-crafts and who taught many of us to fly are all retired. Most of the alleged tailwheel instructors that I know transitioned from C-150s and are still struggling from negative transference.

If I were king, I would make every new pilot read Stick and Rudder and then solo in a T-Craft or Luscombe. After that let them fly Moonies, Airabuses, Cirruses, whatever, just teach them to fly right in the beginning.

I have an old Boys Life book from the thirties that has an article with a great title, "Keep Your Nerve and Flying Speed!" Like most journalists, they got it half right but it was the right half.

Pete, one of the problems where I live is that there is a lot of asphalt to land on. The video is spot on with directional control. Crosswinds and asphalt make for some fun training events. All the students coming from training wheel airplanes have lazy feet!

In the fifties, guys used to learn in champs and cubs/solo in 8-9 hours. Today, it is not unusual to see students take 15-18 hours to solo in tricycle gear A/C. Besides towers, airspace, pre solo knowledge tests, etc. What has changed??

voorheesh wrote:In the fifties, guys used to learn in champs and cubs/solo in 8-9 hours. Today, it is not unusual to see students take 15-18 hours to solo in tricycle gear A/C. Besides towers, airspace, pre solo knowledge tests, etc. What has changed??

There were more fields then airports with a runway? Always landing into the wind as opposed to crosswinds when using runways? Im guessing because I wasnt flying in the 50's.

There were one helluva lot of pilots trained to fly during WWII and we ALL learned in tail wheel airplanes. Single and multi engine. I never flew a nose wheel airplane until after I had graduated from single engine school in the AT-6 and I got into a B-25. In primary training we were taken to a field where there was a crosswind to learn, and the vast majority managed to solo in about eight hours. Spins and recovery proficiency were required and basic aerobatics were introduced prior to solo. I vividly remember that they always had a hard time keeping the latrines provided with toilet paper in primary because everyone was taking it out to chop it up with their airplane.

blueldr wrote:There were one helluva lot of pilots trained to fly during WWII and we ALL learned in tail wheel airplanes. Single and multi engine. I never flew a nose wheel airplane until after I had graduated from single engine school in the AT-6 and I got into a B-25. In primary training we were taken to a field where there was a crosswind to learn, and the vast majority managed to solo in about eight hours. Spins and recovery proficiency were required and basic aerobatics were introduced prior to solo. I vividly remember that they always had a hard time keeping the latrines provided with toilet paper in primary because everyone was taking it out to chop it up with their airplane.

LOL

Haven't any of you guys taken a roll of toilet paper up to throw overboard and then chop it up by flying through it?

Aryana wrote:Only in a Stearman and an Aeronca Champ. Pretty embarrassing landing with TP streaming off the wings/struts.

Only if it's got some "streakage" on it.

I started actually taking lessons at 11 and my first logged time in the 170 was when I had five hours dual when I was 12 or so. I didn't start flying the 170 in earnest until I was 14 or so, but I started flying a Super Cub before I was checked out in the 170. I can't quite claim that I started in taildraggers like Arash can (lucky SOB!), but my nosedragger time is much less than taildragger time. I started out needing a thick couch cushion to see eye level with the top of the instrument panel in a C150, to the same airplane being more or less a one-person airplane for me now.

blueldr wrote:Haven't any of you guys taken a roll of toilet paper up to throw overboard and then chop it up by flying through it?

Yes I have in my Clipped Cub. They demonstrate the Delsy Dive several times each year at the Golden Age Air Museum http://www.goldenageair.org/ who's fly-ins I attend each year.

Anyone that thinks that the US Army busted that L-19 up to make a training film should have their head examined. If it had been done in Hollywood for some sort of a commercial and money was no object, i can imagine that a stunt man could have one it. The US Army wouldn't do something that stupid. They were filming landings for debriefing purposes in training.

Ryan Smith wrote:...I've only seen an airplane groundloop once. ...

Me too... from inside the airplane...

It was in the days before tailwheel endorsements were required. The insurance on the flying club J-3 required only 3 hours dual before solo, so that's what I got. Two problems with that plan: those 3 hours were spread over several months; and I got ZERO training in crosswinds. Very shortly after being signed off I found myself in a situation where I was getting low on fuel and HAD to land in a crosswind. I ALMOST figured it out on my own, but after about the second or third excursion across the runway, the airplane did a nice 270-degree pirouette and ended up with only the tailwheel in the grass, and nicely centered between two runway lights. I was slow enough when it started, and the bungees forgiving enough, that the outer gear never left the ground, and the wingtip stayed off the ground. Only damage was to my ego, and even that wasn't bad, as there were no witnesses. Needless to say, there was more dual in my future before again venturing out solo...

Years ago, I was bringing up a nearly new (1974) 100hp Taylorcraft from Portland, OR to Anchorage on my first flight to AK. We were nearly home when I had to land in Glennallen for my last gas stop before home. The wind was howling a direct xwind across the pavement.

All of my instructors had emphasized the importance on landing on the runway most closely aligned with the wind so I tried landing two or three times, scaring myself each time. There was no runway aligned with the wind.

Eventually I gave up to press on to land at Eureka, a crappy gravel strip near the highway by a roadhouse. I was tired and that landing was exciting as well. My first modest, low speed ground loop ensued. No damage, just embarrassment.

All of the drama would have been avoidable if I had landed in Glennallen on the perfectly aligned gravel taxiway. It was perpendicular to the runway, headed directly into the wind, but none of my instructors had ever bothered to discuss or demonstrate how to make such a situation completely manageable. Landing on the taxiway would have been a no brainer and the smart thing to do.

This video of the O-1/L-19 groundloop is worthy of watching again and again and again. I never fully understood the failure mode of the gear box until I saw this film several years ago. Its highly illustrative for any real tailwheel pilot, and great for students too.

voorheesh wrote:In the fifties, guys used to learn in champs and cubs/solo in 8-9 hours. Today, it is not unusual to see students take 15-18 hours to solo in tricycle gear A/C. Besides towers, airspace, pre solo knowledge tests, etc. What has changed??

The preponderance of paved runways (instead of the good ol' grass) and the need to teach more regs, controlled airspace, and radio-useage.