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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:10 pm
by Dave Clark
George, Eric, Bill hit the nail on the head. When it comes to a crosswind landing more speed (and wheel landing) is what you'll need to get the plane on the ground with less effective ailerons. But then when you slow down and the plane gets to the ineffective aileron point, well, you know.....
The VG's aren't going to be helpful at all.
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:17 pm
by mrpibb
Not saying to replace technique with VG's, I have always managed just fine. I just though better control at higher angles of attack would be a good thing?
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:51 pm
by zero.one.victor
I have to say that IMHO aileron effectiveness is an issue. I can not pick up a main wheel with aileron on a regular takeoff roll. I believe you can do that with an A or B. So in a crosswind situation I run out of aileron before I run out of rudder, which is usually considered to be the limiting factor. However,I don't plan on installing VG's even if they add the ragwing to the STC, unless they lower the price waaay down.
You can add airspeed in a crosswind situation, to a point. You have to slow down eventually-- whether your wheels are on the ground or not,you still need some help from the ailerons/rudder if the crosswind is severe enough.But this originally started out as a discussion of STOL op's not crosswind op's. Like I said, I would prefer more aileron authority at low speeds. I am uncomfortable with the mushy ailerons I have below 60mph, even if I don't have to manuveur around any obstacles. I only have time (to speak of) in one other airplane, my old 150. I don't recall this same mushy aileron business.
I calc'd out the moment of the rag aileron's versus the B model. I used 12" for the B aileron chord, that's what it is on the bottom & that's where I measured my rag aileron at 14 so here goes. The arm is the aileron centerline from airplane centerline distance in inches, as near as I can figure it.
ragwing: 1,008 sq inches @ 170" arm = 171,360 moment.
B model: 1,284 sq inches @ 153.5" arm = 197,094 moment
Quite a difference, eh? You can see why the B ailerons are way more effective than the rag's. This however does not take into account the different design of the rag & B ailerons: besides dimensions, they're hinged differently. Plus the airfoil of the rag & B wings are different, resulting in different airflow characteristics over the ailerons.
So it's interesting to think about, but doesn't really tell the whole story.
Eric
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:34 pm
by lowNslow
Do the ragwing ailerons have more travel than the A and B models?
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:31 pm
by N170BP
Eric, are aileron gap seals (STC'd) available for the ragwing 170? If so,
does yours have them? They (reportedly) increase the effectiveness
of the ailerons.
Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:34 am
by zero.one.victor
I don't have any aileron gap seals on mine. I don't think I've heard of them being installed on 170's of amy model, the only gap seals I've seen are for the flap gap.
Eric
Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:16 pm
by rudymantel
I agree with Bill K. Is running out of aileron authorty really a problem on the rag wing ? In a severe crosswind why not just land a little faster, on the wheels ? (And with flaps up)
Rudy
Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:55 pm
by N170BP
My B model has aileron gap seals. I believe they were
an "optional add-on" with the Sportsman LE kit.
FWIW, the ailerons work all the way down to 35mph
indicated (naturally, they work "better" at higher
speeds!).
Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:02 pm
by zero.one.victor
rudymantel wrote:I agree with Bill K. Is running out of aileron authorty really a problem on the rag wing ? In a severe crosswind why not just land a little faster, on the wheels ? (And with flaps up)
Rudy
Like I said, I'm talking more about STOL op's than Xwinds-- carrying more airspeed is not really an option for a really short strip. And if you do wanna talk Xwinds, carrying more airspeed is not always an option if the strip isn't very long. I could fly my approach at 100 but I'd need quite a lot of airstrip to slow down while I log some "float time"
The whole issue I'm trying to address is that the ragwing doesn't have as responsive an aileron as the A & B. Can anything been done about it--other than carrying more airpseed. Do VG's improve the ailerons? Nobody's really speaking up yay or nay here.......nobody with personal experience that is.
Eric
Eric
Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:06 pm
by GAHorn
zero.one.victor wrote:rudymantel wrote:I agree with Bill K. Is running out of aileron authorty really a problem on the rag wing ? In a severe crosswind why not just land a little faster, on the wheels ? (And with flaps up)
Rudy
Like I said, I'm talking more about STOL op's than Xwinds-- carrying more airspeed is not really an option for a really short strip. And if you do wanna talk Xwinds, carrying more airspeed is not always an option if the strip isn't very long. I could fly my approach at 100 but I'd need quite a lot of airstrip to slow down while I log some "float time"
The whole issue I'm trying to address is that the ragwing doesn't have as responsive an aileron as the A & B. Can anything been done about it--other than carrying more airpseed. Do VG's improve the ailerons? Nobody's really speaking up yay or nay here.......nobody with personal experience that is.
Eric
Eric
Good point, Eric. And while bleeding off that "float time" ....you'll be right back in the same old boat of slowly, continually losing aileron effectiveness.
Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:20 am
by rudymantel
Good point, Eric. And while bleeding off that "float time" ....you'll be right back in the same old boat of slowly, continually losing aileron effectiveness.
_________________
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
By the time you get that slow, the taiwheel can be on the ground and with ample rudder and still some aileron control it shouldn't be a problem. Of course it depends on just how strong the crosswind component is.
Rudy
Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:38 am
by rudymantel
Good point, Eric. And while bleeding off that "float time" ....you'll be right back in the same old boat of slowly, continually losing aileron effectiveness.
_________________
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
By the time you get that slow, the taiwheel can be on the ground and with ample rudder and still some aileron control it shouldn't be a problem. Of course it depends on just how strong the crosswind component is.
Rudy
Eric, I'm not necessarily referring to STOL operations. Your comparative analysis of the aileron power of the ragwing vs. the B model looks correct and the ragwing would run out of aileron earlier than the B.
Rudy
Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 12:46 pm
by 3958v
Guys I am not saying that the ragwing aielerons are as effective as th B or A model. I just would hate for someone reading this forum to overlook buying a good ragwing because of aileron effectiveness. I have flown my ragwing all over the US and have over 1000Hrs in the ragwing. I must say that I have never encountered a problem that I dont think would have been a problem with a B model. If aileron effectiveness was so important we would all fly Pacers or Stinsons. In the end pilot ability and good judgement are much more important factors in crosswinds. Bill K.