Wheelies

[Joe Moilanen]

If someone could instruct me as how to post an image, I'd post a picture of my airstrip and how it's coming along. Should be finished this summer. It's going to be quite long, about 647' 11.34925" so far....

Joe
4518C

[simatos]

Romeo Tango I liked the forward slip vs the Freudian slip comment. It is hard to work in a little psyciatry when talking about flying tho some may think we are a little nuts. I have wrestled with the wheel landing and have yet to "get it " consistently but it is sobering to read the landing stats for tail wheel planes. Many bent airplanes result from wheel landings gone wrong. One recently in northern canada a 170 where the pilot was practicing and ended up in the rhubarb. Just underscores the need to stay ahead of the plane ( and keep practising)Gary

[Indopilot]

Rhubarb pie sure sounds good right now to hot for it down here. Brian

[sea1dww]

That Flybaby slip on final video was done at my home base, S50 Auburn, WA.

I was wondering how much flap can we use in a B model when side slipping? I know that side slips with full flaps are a no-no, but what about 20 or 30 degrees?

Dave
'54B
N1946C

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Dave go way up to altitude and try it. In fact try it with full flaps. Blanking out the elevator in my experiance USUALLY comes on slow and is very controllable WHEN your looking for it. When the elevator gets mushy release a little of the slip.

But why would you need to slip when you have those BIG flaps. Pull them all the way on and point the nose down.

[Robert Eilers]

The airports I go in and out of in the Bay Area (SFO) handle high traffic loads and alot of fast movers. If you can stay fast on final they tend to be more cooperative. I use a forward slip on short final to slow into the white arc and then progressively add flaps as required.

[blueldr]

If there is any question in your mind about "B" model flaps and slipping the airplane, be damn sure you are strapped in tight, have no loose junk in the cabin, and have plenty of altitude when you try it. The nose down pitch is easily enough to kill you on short final. I have no information on an "A" model, but you can bet your sweet *** that it doesn't come on slowly in a "B" model. It is definitely quick and severe.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Yes BL when the nose does drop it is straight down and can be quick. I've had it demonstarted to me and done it myself never letting the nose drop but just start. We stalled the elevator so much that quickly moving it (the yoke) for and aft several inches has no effect. When this happens it's time to get out of the slip.

Yes I agree you only want to do this from a very safe (think spin) altitude.

[GAHorn]

It may help to understand the aerodynamics of the problem as it relates to B-models, large flaps, and slips.
The horizontal tailplane produces a "downward" lift in virtually all conventional airplanes. This downward lift acts to make the fuselage a "fulcrum" about the CG which is usually located somewhere within the chord of the wing.
Lowering full flaps produces a large down-wash in the relative wind that is immediately in front of the horizontal stabilizer. This is like a large updraft in front of a conventional wing... it greatly increases the angle-of-attack of the horizontal stabilizer....placing it at/near a stall.
If the pilot next places the airplane in a slip, the fuselage will "blank" out a large portion of the downwind side horizontal stabilizer.... which was already at/near a stall and very nearly at the edge of it's performance capability to keep the nose of the airpane "up".
A B-model has such large flaps, capable of generating such a large downwash, that when the airplane is slipped, ...half the tailplane (Horizontal Stabilizer) is simply not sufficient to prevent the nose from suddendly dropping. On top of that, the large rudder inputs from the slip imparts a decided lateral yaw that resembles an attempt to spin. It is sudden. It is nasty.
If insufficient altitude exists when it occurs, it's unlikely to be recoverable.
Hope this helps to understand. I recommend that a B-model owner make a decision...either slip... or use full flaps. In my own experience, the full flaps are much more effective than the slip anyway, as long as the airspeed is within normal landing speeds. Too fast with full flaps extends the landing distance, same as with a slip. Slow it down!..and it'll come down BIG time with full flaps. Poor airspeed control in either manuever is counter-productive to making a steep approach/short landing... If you can't/don't control your speed then you've already screwed it up and should go around and try again...this time with the correct speed.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

I just wanted to make one thing clear. I do not slip with full flaps (or any flaps) on landing approach. With the flaps as George pointed out it's not necessary to slip. In fact since I have the big flaps on my 170 I just don't ever slip it.

[GAHorn]

I just wanted to make one thing clear. I do not slip with full flaps (or any flaps) on landing approach. With the flaps as George pointed out it's not necessary to slip. In fact since I have the big flaps on my 170 I just don't ever slip it.

Yeah, but Bruce, ... I"m not sure WHAT your A-model with B-Flaps would do....if properly flown... It'd probably make a fantastic short-landing video somewhere, if you could just be persuaded to demonstrate that for us.

[sea1dww]

I sure appreciate the shared knowledge. (and the witty banter) I have no intention to attempting a slip with full flaps unless it is in a learning environment (up high and with someone who knows). I'm quite satisfied with full flaps on final and the proper approach speed. I am really enjoying my 170. I've put 130 hours on it since April 1 and I'm pleased with its flight and landing characteristics. Good airplane and very forgiving of all but the most stupid. We have had two ground loops in the last month at my airport, a Maule and a Pacer. It makes me real glad I've got all that distance between the mains and the tailwheel. Thanks again for the feedback.

Dave

[mboone]

I have been told that MAF teaches a very different wheel landing for missionary pilots in skywagons. I used it for many years in a Stinson. Rather than fly onto the ground, you hold steady attitude under reduced power on final until about 10 feet off. Then you pull back slightly on the yoke for about 2 seconds to slow the decent rate, then release. As soon as the mains touch you pull throttle to idle. Much more confortable than "pinning it on" and gives a short ground roll. Works in x-wind too.

[bradbrady]

I have been told that MAF teaches a very different wheel landing for missionary pilots in skywagons. I used it for many years in a Stinson. Rather than fly onto the ground, you hold steady attitude under reduced power on final until about 10 feet off. Then you pull back slightly on the yoke for about 2 seconds to slow the decent rate, then release. As soon as the mains touch you pull throttle to idle. Much more confortable than "pinning it on" and gives a short ground roll. Works in x-wind too.

mboon,
It's been quite a while since I flew dads A/C, 170BB. So since today was so perfict, I thought I would pull it out and practice my wheel landings! In the first 30 ticks on the tack I had 27 take offs and landings which I will log Finaly got things settled down to the point I could once again make wheel landings, then thought, Hey! someone wrote about a way the missionaries do It! (no pun intended). So I stoped for a brake, and read your post. I found It works quite well (if I'm reading your post right) But my ground roll did seam to shorten Thanks for the Info!
brad

[AR Dave]

I have the whole missionary procedure, in my 170 Procedure file, if anyone wants it.