The International Cessna^® 170 Association

gahorn wrote:But you can be certain that any airplane with "lost" logbooks is one whose major history IS POSSIBLY fictitious. It may not even "belong" to the person trying to sell it to you. It may not even be the airplane represented by what few "logs" it does possess!

I don't buy it George. I don't disagree that there are folks out there that will "lose" log books for the purpose of hiding defects in the airplane. But as Steve points out, a thourough inspection is going to bear that out. You are totally discounting the possibility, if not probablility, that lost log books CAN BE just that: LOST. You seem to leave no room for doubt. I'm fairly sure that's what Bruce is getting at as being "over the top". It's too bad every single airplane owner can't be as careful with the books as you are.

Miles

I bought a nice Cessna 182 a few years back, or I should say my company did. I bought it from a fellow crop-duster who was (is) a resident of MT (not a transient). A crop-duster wouldn’t hose a fellow crop-duster right? Not necessarily!! I didn’t realize it until after the check was cashed that it had incomplete logs. I was privy to inspect the logs and I did but for some reason didn’t pick up on them not being from day one. It had a PPonk engine conversion and there were no logs earlier than the conversion. The guy I bought it from was using it in a part 135 operation so I kinda got lulled into “the logs are okay”. Long story short it cost me probably 5 to 8 K when I sold it. Unless I simply couldn’t live without the airplane in question unless the logs were complete I would RUN. How you say”……….too soon olt to late schmart?

Buck

cessna170bdriver wrote:

gahorn wrote:But you can be certain that any airplane with "lost" logbooks is one whose major history IS POSSIBLY fictitious. It may not even "belong" to the person trying to sell it to you. It may not even be the airplane represented by what few "logs" it does possess!

I don't buy it George. I don't disagree that there are folks out there that will "lose" log books for the purpose of hiding defects in the airplane. But as Steve points out, a thourough inspection is going to bear that out. You are totally discounting the possibility, if not probablility, that lost log books CAN BE just that: LOST. You seem to leave no room for doubt. I'm fairly sure that's what Bruce is getting at as being "over the top". It's too bad every single airplane owner can't be as careful with the books as you are.

Miles

I don't totally discount it but I totally discount the seeming large numbers of airplanes that claim to be the victim of "lost" logs. This entire thread is purely a request for the opinions of others. This is mine based on my experience which has been that if a seller claims the logs are lost...then there's lots more to the story to yet be revealed. In virtually every case I've looked at, and I've looked at quite a few over a 35 year career of locating and purchasing airplanes for corporate operators,... a case of "lost" logs is a strong risk of fiction and/or deception.

I don't read it that Steve was conveying a msg that "an inspection is going to reveal (all) the defects" as you seem to suggest, Miles. (Steve: feel free to correct the record?) While existing logbooks may contain fiction, missing/lost logbooks are an entirely different issue with much more complicated probabilities.
Logbooks are so important to the value of the airplane that no reasonable owner is going to risk their loss. I may not know where my passport or my birth certificate is, (those are documents that can be replaced) but I know exactly where my aircraft logs are.
I know that my airplane's logs cannot be replaced and so do you and so does every other smart owner. They are kept in a safe place. For that reason, I believe it is unreasonable to expect the numbers of "lost logbook" stories that seem to abound... especially when those same airplanes seem to be the ones commonly found with hidden damage and dubious pedigree.

By the way everyone: If YOUR airplane's logs are "with the mechanic" or out in the plane or some other unsecure place, I strongly recommend you get them into a safe or lock-box ASAP. I also advise against carrying them around in the plane. When you drop your plane off at the shop, tell the mechanic you expect them to be ready when the plane is to be picked up when the plane is. Never allow a shop to keep your logbooks. (And strongly consider making a duplicate photocopy of all logs and records.)

I can see my log books, across the room from me, behind a glass door cabinet. Guess I'd better buy me a fire proof gun safe (which I need anyway). Hope someone doesn't steal the gun safe. I'd sell my logs for 10K if anyone's interested.

AR Dave wrote: I'd sell my logs for 10K if anyone's interested.

Do they come with a data plate

A lot of reasonable people say that the log books are 1/3 to 1/4 of the value of a good airframe. And thus, an airframe missing some logs is worth roughly 1/3 to 1/4 less than a comparable airframe with complete logs.

If your airplane has incomplete logs and you think it is worth 42K, it may very well be worth 42K and I am not saying otherwise. Please do note that I am only sharing what some reasonable people have said and would like to remain friends with everyone on this board.

Another saying from the same reasonable people - "Most people who say that complete logs don't affect the value of an airframe that much usually own an airplane with incomplete logs"

Of course technicely all you have to keep is the entry for the current Inspections repairs &337's. Once it is redone you can throw the previous one away.
When I stared my business, my office came with a shelf of manuals and log books for 3 or 4 airplanes. I was only able to locate one of the owners who seemed happy to get the "missing" logs. When I sold out the new guy still had those logs on the shelf. How they got there I don't have a clue. Brian

I don't agree with that interpretation, Brian.
FAR 91.417 (2)(vi), with respect to required records: "Copies of the forms prescribed by FAR 43.9(a) of this chapter for each major alteration to the airframe and currently installed engines, rotors, propellers, and appliances."

That is in reference to 43.9(a) which states: "Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:(1) a description...of work performed (2) the date of completion of work performed (3) the name of the person performing the work..."

There may be some folks who choose to interpret FAR 91.417 as referring only to Forms such as 337's....but that is incorrect for several reasons. Firstly, Form 337's are not mentioned in 43.9(a) at all. The "form" described in that paragraph is actually the "Maintenance record", i.e. in the logbooks.

Secondly, and in my opinion the BOTTOM LINE to this argurment is FAR 91.419, "Transfer of maintenance records. Any owner or operator who sells a U.S. registered aircraft shall transfer to the purchaser at the time of sale, the following records of that aircraft in plain language form or in coded form at the election of the purchaser...
(a) The records specified in 91.417(a)(2) (which states in (2)(i) The total time(s)... (ii) The current status... (iii) The time since last overhaul of all items... (iv) The current inspection status... (v) The current status of applicable AD(s)... (vi) Copies of the forms prescribed in 43.9(a) (mentioned above) ...

AND...

(b) The records specified in FAR 91.417(a)(1) which are not included in the records covered by para. (a) of this section...
Now this LAST requirement is the catch-all, because 91.417(a)(1) specifies "Records of the maintenance, preventive maintenance," etc etc... In other words, simple oil changes and other regular/preventive maintenance not required to be kept by 91.417 (2) ...(the ones some folks erroneously claim to be only inspection records and Form 337's)... are the very simple, preventive mx records required in 91.417(a)(1) and which are required to be kept by the owner in order to comply with 91.419 (b), and further, which MUST be kept in order to transfer them to the new purchaser as required by 91.419(b).
Not only that, but if the seller keeps those records in "coded" form (i.e., by computer, etc.) the seller must keep those records so that the Administrator or the NTSB may have access to them. There is no "drop dead" date provided for in that regulation. Therefore the records must be complete, contain all records of repairs, maintenance, and preventive maintenance, ... and... they must be permanently kept records... and they must be made available to purchasers of the aircraft.

gahorn wrote:

N9149A wrote:...
George, please, these statments are just over the the top. ...

Just because all the logs are present does not make them totally non-fiction, to be sure. That's the reason we do an inspection prior to purchase.
But you can be certain that any airplane with "lost" logbooks is one whose major history IS POSSIBLY fictitious. It may not even "belong" to the person trying to sell it to you. It may not even be the airplane represented by what few "logs" it does possess!

What is the dollar value of logbooks? It depends on 1-If they are original, 2- If they are truthful. 3-If they actually represent the airframe they claim to depict.

It's true that logbooks are not the documents that determine ownership. BUT.... if the logbooks are fictitiously describing a particular airframe, then the REAL ownership of that airplane is in question. Drilling off a dataplate from some wreckage and installing it on YOUR airplane, does not change your ownership of the airplane. But that illegal act will likely convince someone ELSE that the diguised airplane can be legally purchased,... while YOU or your insurance company continues to look for that plane. If they discover the subterfuge, then the new "owner" will lose his investment.

Some folks believe it's OK to stick a dataplate onto a collection of parts and call it the airplane represented by that dataplate. Sometimes there are "logbooks" that are offered along with the conglomeration. Somtimes not. The fact that there are NO logs.... is probably not a case of lost logs at all. It's really a case of someone finding it easier to claim them "lost" than to have to explain what the truth is.

Over the top? Not in my opinion.

I gotta agree with Bruce, you're a little over the top about the logs. They are nothing but a collection of papers, that show some of a planes history. That's not intended as a flame.

Lost logs are nothing more than an unknown, there's nothing "ficticious" about that. Just because you have "complete" logs and even if they are truthfull doesn't mean there aren't undocumented repairs on your plane. Those repairs just are not in the logs, and nobody reading them is any the wiser unless they have some historical knowledge otherwise, just as in your story previously posted. In my humble opinion the real assesment of a 50+ year old airplane like the ones we are flying is an inspection. Call it an annual, a pre-buy, or just plain going through it with a fine tooth comb and magnifying glass...................what you see is what you get. A plane that is a show quality plane with "complete" logs, a run out motor, documented repairs to the gearbox that were done incorrectly creating structural issues, and perhaps a case of bad rust in the wings is in my opinion a piece of junk no matter how pretty the paint is or how "complete" the logs are. That's just me, however a collector might think that plane was a gem, pay top dollar for it and stick it in his museum.

If it has clear title, passes inspection, meets my requirements then its a good plane as far as I'm concerned. If that plane also has complete logs that's great, but they wouldn't be worth any more money to me.

Jr.CubBuilder wrote:...If it has clear title, ...

That's one of my major points. IF you believe the logs were truly lost...and IF you are dealing with the actual owner who's made no such mistakes himself during his pruchase, ...then a title search may be useful.
I don't believe the majority of "lost" logs were truly ever lost, but that is the "convenient" story. Logs not only support the mx history, but also support the ownership history of the airplane.
Example: A logbook records a repair to the right wing. But the subject airplane has no such repair. That's a questionable ownership situation.
Example: A logbook has no record of a repaired right wing. But the subject airplane has a repair. Several scenarios now exist: 1) The repair was deliberately not recorded, resulting in damage to the credibility of the seller. (And the airplane is not legally airworthy.) 2) The airplane is not the airplane represented by the logs and again, the aircraft ownership is/should be in question. 3) The right wing has been replaced by a wing of unknown pedigree for which no repair record is available. Both the replacement and the repair have been unrecorded, and both airworthiness AND ownership become issues.
"Lost" logs always carry the possibility of ALL the above issues. Such issues should be recognized and resolved by any prospective purchaser (and that is why I am so persistent in making this point. I am not merely trying to wear everyone down.)

In summary, the logs should represent the airplane being offered for sale, not only as a mx history, but also as supporting evidence of ownership. IF the logs do not accurately represent the airplane, then such issues should be considered. If the logs are "lost"...then they most assuredly do NOT represent the airplane...and the worst-case scenario is much more likely.

WOW !
Just a little dity I'l let in here. A freind of mine lost his logs (said Moma put them away and couldn't find them) So for the next two months he,(as an apia) checked with Oak City and got ALL the 337's and other information that the feds had! Put toghter another set of logs! did a complete inspection of the A/C so every thing was met from day one! (good idea just to keep your self out of trouble!) If your an apia! Then Mama found the logs Guess what! his logs were better than the original logs! imagin that!
brad

bradbrady wrote:WOW !
Just a little dity I'l let in here. A freind of mine lost his logs (said Moma put them away and couldn't find them) So for the next two months he,(as an apia) checked with Oak City and got ALL the 337's and other information that the feds had! Put toghter another set of logs! did a complete inspection of the A/C so every thing was met from day one! (good idea just to keep your self out of trouble!) If your an apia! Then Mama found the logs Guess what! his logs were better than the original logs! imagin that!
brad

The original logs were used to record the aircraft's mx history. The new logs were created to provide a potential new owner with reading material that would inspire confidence. Not a dig at your friend...just an observation of human nature. An effort to recreate logs is always a very difficult and time consuming task. It's an effort to create credibility, ... while original logs are (usually) more candid and more likely to be guileless. A long record over a 40-50 year period of entries made by a couple dozen different folks, are much more likely to give a true picture of an airplane's history than the careful work of a single person making a recreation.

Hello, I just joined up and I'm hoping to tap into your expertise . How would you deal with an aircraft you are considering for purchase that does not have a complete set of logs, maybe it even has had some major mods that are not covered by the "existing" logs. I know from some of the messages that some would run and others are not all that concerned pending an inspection. My question is how could I best find the missing information? Are form 337's and annual inspection reports kept on file somewhere? I'm sure a guy could go door to door but perhaps some of you know which door to knock on first? Thanks and I look forward to your discussions. Regards, Greg

GAD,
Is this an aircraft based in the US you are planning to bring in to Canada? If so, the situation you mentioned might present some severe difficulties. You might contact (email or PM) Bipolar on this site. He can give you straightforward answers to your questions regarding importation difficulites.

Greg,
It's got a lot to do with where and how you live. Is MB for Manitoba? I don't know anything about that country, but the further you live away from the Lower 48, the more realistic things get. For example, in Alaska pilots are going to get what they need, mods or otherwise, to fly their planes. If a 337 or STC is not easy to come by when the mod is needed, they ain't worried about it. Alaskans don't insure their planes anyway. There are a lot of planes out there that don't have all the mods approved or complete logs. And like someone pointed out, the logs are only as good as the owner wants them to be. There are little mods on these planes that most owners aren't even aware are mods, if one wants to get technical. I enjoy reading the history of my plane in the logs and it's nice that they have been kept down to just about every receipt, but to tell you the truth I bought the plane, the logs are a bonus. I think the most important thing to know is the plane. If it's a 170, have someone that really knows the ins and outs of 170's look it over. Oh yes, you can chase down STC's and 337's and get all the pedigree stuff caught up. This club has copies of just about all the 337's for $2 each.