170 Maneuvers

[Bill Hart]

After watching it a couple more times it sure looks like he rolled it as well.

Thats what I thought also Doug.

[doug8082a]

I googled the author and found another link to that video where he says they did a roll. I also found his Myspace page and got a rough idea (state) of where the plane's based... i better stop before I figure out much more and send a nasty-gram...

[doug8082a]

These bozos were foolish enough to video themselves ... (it's pretty funny but I feel for the poor, sweet, pup.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN77b9DqEbc

Grrrrrrrrrr....

[Bill Hart]

I Wonder what thier oil press did during that push?

[flyguy]

Remember, you can do anything once!

WELL U KIN START TU DO ALMOST ANYTHIN COMPLETE BUT CHER NOT APT TU GIT ALL UV SUM THINGS DONE TU GUD.

Loops, cuban eights, spins and rolls of any kind, are considered "unusual attitudes and have restrictions that apply to pilots who do them. Doing a roll on take-off is a violation unless the pilot is certified aerobatic and has an altitude waiver - then these maneuvers would probably be restricted to an "organized" airshow. I doubt seriously if you observed a "snap" roll'. Planes with lots of torque like the 180 can do a pretty decent aileron roll from level flight. Our 170s aren't as agile nor as 'strong' either in airframe or motive power as a 180. I have done some barrel rolls in my 170 and if done right there are no negative stresses on the airframe. A snap roll on the other hand is a pretty violent maneuver and best left to full aerobatic planes and at a safe altitude.

[GAHorn]

I know that flyguy isn't being "perzactly akkurit" when he talks about pilots being "certified aerobatic",... but he's on the "rite trak".

There are two operating rules that come into play regarding aerobatics: The one pertaining to use of parachutes (FAR 91.307 (c)), and the one pertaining to "aerobatic flight" (FAR 91.303). The former prohibits any manuever exceeding 30 degrees pitch and/or 60 degrees bank (unless each occupant other than a crewmember are wearing parachutes.) The latter specifies where aerobatics may be performed and the weather limitations which apply. (Not less than 3 miles vis, and not below 1500' above the surface , not within Class B,C,D or E airspace designated for an airport, or within 4 miles of an airway, or over congested areas or over crowds. (Sounds as if those fools you observed rolling the aircraft immediately after takeoff at the local airport probably violated several elements of 91.303.)
Those are the operations FARs that pertain. There are also aircraft limitatiions which may apply, such as prohibitions to performing aerobatic manuevers other than those specifically approved such as chandelles or spins if in the utility category. I'll bet that snap rolls were prohibited in those aircraft mentioned.
Aileron rolls and barrel rolls* can, if properly performed, place no undue stress on normal category airplanes. In fact they can be virtually 1-G (positive) manuevers, if properly performed. I doubt that those manuevers can be successfully or properly conducted immediately after takeoff in a Cessna 180, but in any case they are not approved manuevers and they certainly violated the under 1500' rule (unless a "waiver" was obtained from the FAA by the operator....which of course was not likely.)

*A barrel roll is hardly more than a high-performance turn, but by most definitions it is considered aerobatic and the C-180 (and C-170) does not list it as an approved manuever. Well executed it is not harmful. Except to one's pilot's certificate and reputation.
The nut who rolled the airplane with his girlfriend in the back seat was derelict in his obligation to respect the sanctity of her life and safety. He should be severely held in contempt. IMHO (And needless to say, he violated FAR 91.307 at the very least.)

[bsdunek]

elements of 91.303.)

The nut who rolled the airplane with his girlfriend in the back seat was derelict in his obligation to respect the sanctity of her life and safety. He should be severely held in contempt. IMHO (And needless to say, he violated FAR 91.307 at the very least.)

Agreed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Talk about giving a bad name to general aviation.
When I was a kid, there was a guy at Pontiac Airport (MI) that had a few 'adult beverages' and decided he could loop his Ercoupe. Turns out you can loop an Ercoupe if you get it going fast enough. The story was, it could happen twice - the third time ended it. The Darwin effect.

[cessna170bdriver]

Only a little off topic, but bsdunek's last post is a good segue into the following story.

In an earlier era, the Ercoupe was touted as one of the safest airplanes available: stall resistant, spin resistant, practically lands itself, etc, etc. Dad was at a fly-in in 1950's and watched an Ercoupe make an approach and "landing" without ever breaking the glide. Dad says he remembers seeing it laying there on its back with the nose gear folded up and a nearby CAA inspector say "You can make 'em fool proof but you can't make 'em DAMN fool proof."

Miles

[N2868C]

The rolls that I watched on take-off were done at about 400'. First the 180 and then the Luscombe in trail. My best guess is that the roll rate was somewhere between 70 and 90 degrees/sec.

Tom

[Indopilot]

I had a co-worker once that liked to work late at night. Doing oil changes he reportedly liked to add beverages to himself at the same rate he added oil. When he was topped up he would go out and do night time STUNTS in that plane or his 172. (hate to call them aerobatics since that impilies some control). He quit for a while when his oil door popped open during a stunt and beat itself to death on the side of the cowl. He reportedly showed the boss how to roll the 172RG. Thinking it wasn't so hard the boss tried it again and splitSed out of the top of the roll, some how w/o killing himself. He never was sure how far past redline he went. I guess he was busy with other things about that time. I learned all this right after I had signed off an annual on that airplane.

[1SeventyZ]

*A barrel roll is hardly more than a high-performance turn, but by most definitions it is considered aerobatic and the C-180 (and C-170) does not list it as an approved manuever. Well executed it is not harmful.

I was going to mention ^^this when I first read this thread, because it reminded me of the Tex Johnston demo flight of the Boeing 707. The story is that he actually considered the maneuver for some time before the flight, and did the least airframe taxing roll he could, which I think is the barrel roll.

[GAHorn]

Yes, "Tex" is responsible for more civilian jets being rolled than anyone.
I once was C.P. of a Fortune 500 subsidiary, and we'd acquired a HS-125/Hawker. Insurance required that (since I had no turbojet time) I have 25 hrs. of initial operating experience with an experienced safety pilot ( something which has since been formalized for inexperienced turbine pilots by the FAA in an S.O.E. rating restriction.)

A good fellow who became my mentor was Beryl Minard.

My regular crew-member, Mike, and I were fairly-well hung-over from a recent celebration of some sort (we rarely needed significant reasons in those days of decadent youth) and on an early morning ferry-flight to the mx facility to correct some minor interior problem, Beryl, the guy we'd hired to keep us safe asked me "George, when are you going to let me fly your airplane?"
With my head pounding and my eyes looking inside-out I replied, "Right now." He took off with me in the right seat and my wasted-to-the-world-blurry-eyed first officer Mike sitting back in the cabin trying to keep his eyes closed and his head against a pillow.
It was 2,000 overcast, tops reported at 6,000 and clear above. As we were climbing out about 250 kts thru 3,000 I left he cockpit to get some much-needed coffee from the galley in the rear cabin. I was just re-entering the cockpit and, needing to use both hands to balance myself stepping back into the co-pilot's seat, I placed the styrofoam cup full of hot coffee on the top of the panel just beneath the mag compass, and as I stuck my right leg in front of my seat in preparation to sit down, we popped out of the undercast into a brilliant sky of blue above and white fluffy floor below... and ... at just that moment Beryl gently rolled about 60-degrees right and looked below and to our right (clearing the area I later came to realize) and with me suspended above my seat and my coffee on the dash, he then neatly and swiftly rolled the airplane a full 360-degrees in a left aileron roll.
I was horrified. I was infuriated. I dashed out of the cockpit back to the cabin and approached Mike, who was mummified and bloodshot staring out the window at the brilliant, sun-lit world above the right wing and shouted, "Did you see that! Did you see what he did!"
"No", he droned lowly, "and I don't want to see it again either." (Mike always had a dry humor.)

I stormed back into the cockpit and demanded, "(expletive deleted) Beryl, what do you think you're doing?"

"Relax, George. I'm not going to hurt your airplane.", he grinned. "Drink your coffee."

Not being in better shape and incapable of dealing with it, I sat down and looked at all the gyros. They were happily performing perfectly and the entire cockpit looked like nothing had happened. My coffee was leaving a steamy-spot on the windshield above it, with not so much as a ripple in the cup. It was then I realized, it was a 1-G manuever. If I'd not seen it I'd have never known the airplane had been rolled.

It fascinated me so much that I enrolled (pardon the pun) in an aerobatics course with Gene Soucy who ran a school up north of Dallas. It was great training, conducted in an Avions-Mudry CAP-10B, a proper airplane for such things. (And I got over my initial anger with Beryl, he taught me the things that the sim facility couldn't, and we became life-long friends. Neglected by his family, I placed him in assisted living two years ago, and I visit him whenever I can get down there.)

I recommend everyone who has never been properly trained in aerobatics to seek such training. Obtain it from a qualified school/instructor in a well-organized curriculum...not from a "buddy" in the local fbo's general trainer. Get the training from someone who will subsequently rent you the plane and parachute, and go get your fill of it. Resist the tempation to impress your buddies...just go improve yourself and get your curiosity sated and your recklessness calmed.

Then go get back into your standard category airplane and take care of it and operate it within it's limitations like the competent and skilled aviator you are. Real pilots have integrity. They don't cheat on approaches. They don't violate operating limitations or regulations. They are disciplined and thoughtful and respectful of the most valuable thing their passengers have....their lives. True aviators never subject them to foolish risk for illegal thrill.

[johneeb]

http://vimeo.com/6671935
Watch for the stall/tailslide at 1:50.