The International Cessna^® 170 Association

AKGrouch wrote:John, my situation is further exagerated as there is no back seat or hat rack even in the aircraft. It's set up and signed off strictly as a 2 seater right now. While not a significant weight, that further adds to the forward cg configuration to be contended with.

Yeah, an empty rear seat at least acts as ballast, and it sounds like you really need some! The trouble with math is, you can never argue with it! Well, you can, but you won't win!

John, you're right about the math......never have been able to figure out a realistic way to beat it......

AK Grouch

Not sure but believe I read it that you still have the battery on the firewall.
Easiest way I can think of to move your CG back is to move the battery back behind the baggage bulkhead. That is where mine ended up.

I went with the Gel version as I never want to see battery acid in the plane.

Putting the Micro VG kit on helped since some of them go under the horiz stabilizer and help the elevator authouty out a bit.

AKGrouch-
I never had any trouble rounding up 100 pounds worth of survival gear and we're required to carry it in Alaska. Load it in the back and go flying, that will do the CG trick for you.

I did the same thing move the battery aft. Only problem is you have to add about 20+ lbs of cable, so there's definitely a trade off to be made.

I got rid of the Gill and now have the Odyssey gel battery on the firewall. I plan on using survival gear and the lead ballast in the winter for now and in the summer, survival gear and water in two jugs. Easily usable or disposable in the summer. I plan on keeping the two seat configuration and don't plan on ever reinstalling the original back seat or hat rack. If I need a back seat, I will save up and get the Dodge jump seats. I may ultimately come up with something else during winter....not sure or really thinking about that right now as the bird is down for a while .....redoing the seats and interior while the snow flies. You know the drill....powder coated frames, the smell of glue on aluminum panels....all that fun stuff. As for the vg's, I'm thinking about them because of what they might do if on the rudder and horizontal......course also putting a square tail on it would be probably be better for rudder authority.....in some ways I wish I had that large round tail of a 170 on it.....lol

You might also consider Selkirks fiberglass extended baggage. It weighs a little and that will help you but the real benifit is 30 lbs back there equals the equivalent of around 50 lbs in the standard baggage area. I also moved my ELT and Strobe pack back behind the extended baggage bulkhead. There is not much weight in them but at that arm it helps out. I have thought about moving my battery too but it is so nice to have your battery toasty warm just from preheating your motor.
Shawn

If you are in the cold country you DON’T want your battery in the back!!

Battery heaters are problematic and if you don’t have one and want to go fly when it is
-10 or colder your battery in the back plus all that cable for the juice to get through will
be a problem. I had a pink (can’t remember the name) battery on the firewall, now I have
an Odyssey which lost me ~ 10#.

My son has his battery in the back on his 180hp 170 and it has proven to be a problem.
Granted we are in the N latitudes.

Put a 10# sleeping bag in a couple robust garbage bags and secure them aft of the baggage compartment and you will have done a lot to off-set the forward CG. I don’t have the extended baggage (yet). It seems I can get enough “stuff” in the normal baggage compartment. I have the “Dodge” back seats but only usually fly with one of them installed. They are nice and only take about 5 minutes to install.

Buck, Galena, AK

Buck,

Thanks for the comments. I have the Odyssey on the firewall and plan on keeping it right where it is. Like I said in an earlier post,I'm gonna use survival gear and two containers of water for ballast in the late Spring through early Fall. Late Fall through early Spring will be winter survival gear and some lead ballast for now. Of course, some of the winter survival gear will be the Northern Companion and coffee......lol

AKGrouch wrote:Shawn,

Right now, I'm planning on talking to my IA about putting 15 to 20 lbs just forward of the rear bulkhead in front of the elevator at station 240. That would result in only a 20 lb gain on empty weight, but would manipulate the cg to respond very similar to keep it in the envelope range.

pat

Pat,
Here is one mans solution to the balance problem created by installing an IO360, CS Prop and some new avionics. The ballast is located (on a 170B) between the bulkheads at station 205.812 and 228.687. I did not fly the airplane prior to adding the ballast and given it's flight characteristics with the ballast I do not want to fly without it. I have found that when I have another senior citizen (large) in the right seat and no one in the back seat that the plane behaves better during the flare if I have the right seater slide his seat back (slide back some time before the flare not during).

Sounds like a good argument for a Javelin tank. (I hate ballast.)

My Del-Air converstion is close to the fwd limits at the most forward limit, without a stock rear seat and with Dodge rear seats. Its battery is still on the forward firewall. I installed a 3450 Scott Tail wheel which had a 10X3.50X4 tire. I have since gone to a Gar 4,00X4 about the same size just fat/round. At the time My Scott was wasted so I thought bigger is better for W/B. Where else can you get so far aft to make a differance. I also have the Bird dog Main tail leaf and early 180 gear. I had 800X6 mains but have gone to 850X6 W/ double puc brakes Now I've been in contact with the new owners of Gar, they sent me there paper work that they use to get field approvals for larger mains and tail wheels. I think putting the added weight to things that you can use is better than dead weight bolted to your airframe. Lance

Watkinsnv wrote:I have since gone to a Gar 4,00X4 about the same size just fat/round. At the time My Scott was wasted so I thought bigger is better for W/B. Where else can you get so far aft to make a differance. I also have the Bird dog Main tail leaf and early 180 gear. I had 800X6 mains but have gone to 850X6 W/ double puc brakes Now I've been in contact with the new owners of Gar, they sent me there paper work that they use to get field approvals for larger mains and tail wheels. I think putting the added weight to things that you can use is better than dead weight bolted to your airframe. Lance

Lance, What is the actual benefit of the Gar Aero tail wheel? I know how wide the yoke is, but what does it add in performance other than floatation. Is it that much heavier than the Scoot 3200? Also, who now owns the STC from Gar Aero. I have one of the yokes, the tire, and tube. These parts are new but I don't have the axle or spacers. I assume they now have parts available and apparently are willing to share paperwork (probably for a fee naturally) .....please advise.

thanks

pat

Who owns the STC for the old Gar Aero? It's now "Alaska Tundra Tires" a division of Floats Alaska which is now called Seaplanes North. There are enough name changes in the aviation world to keep someone busy keeping track 24-7. Anyway they are here:

http://www.alaskatundratires.com/tailwheel.html

As for benefits of the larger tailwheel above and beyond floatation in sand or mud, the larger tire at lower pressure will help absorb some shock when dealing with rocky bush strips. This is especially true with the Alaskan Bushwheels "Baby Bushwheel" tire which can be run at about 10 lbs. psi and is designed to absorb shock. Your wallet should be prepared to absorb about a $300 shock just for this tire though.....This tire of course fits both the Gar Aero Tailwheel fork and the Alaskan Bushwheel tailwheel assy.

Yea.