The International Cessna^® 170 Association

George wrote
"Unfair as it may seem.... FAR's give right-of-way to aircraft on final."

I was number 2 flying on Hawkeye's left wing.
Here is a question. The FAR's give the right-of-way to the aircraft on final, but, who was on final first? The guy landing with a tailwind in the C210 had not crossed the thresh hold of runway 31 on his final approach, yet we were about 1000 feet past the threshold of runway 13 when we saw him. As we had briefed, and were flying, a low approach and had no intensions of landing on this pass, we were about 200' AGL. I know the lower aircraft on final has the right of way, but we had crossed the threshold before he crossed his. He was lower. If we had been landing, we would have touched down before he crossed the threshold. That would have been really interesting! I filed and mailed a NASA form yesterday. Gary

As has been said earlier Fly and drive defensively. Let this be an experience to remember and a learning experience. No harm no foul. I have flown a no electric plane for many years and you just learn to be extra alert. No doubt the guy in the 206 with no electric was a little excited. Next time something unexpected happens it might be you. You use uncontrolled airports and airspace at your own risk. JUST BE CAREFUL OUT-THERE

It is true that you do not know the story of the "other guy".

A few years ago while flying bounces in the pattern at my airport, I had two close calls from the same airplane. I was fat dumb and happy on downwind (left pattern)with one airplane ahead of me and one behind just finishing his crosswind turn, when out of nowhere and unannounced, a single crossed less than one hundred yards off of my nose (left to right), I had to do a little climbing S turn into him to avoid a possible collision. I called the traffic to the other two airplanes and continued on my merry way. I had to extend maybe half a mile for the airplane ahead of me then turned base and final. Once again fat dumb and happy on low final, here he comes again... right in front of me from a base, and somehow in front of the other airplane, this time I saw him a little bit earlier and did a wave off climbing and stepping right. Once again I called the traffic to the other airplanes.

While circling the pattern I was talking to the guy that had landed ahead (yes I was a bit miffed... the Irish was coming out ) and he saw this old (ancient) guy come taxiing in. I cooled myself down and decided to have a talk with him when I landed. I met him in the restaurant and he must have been in his eighties. I was very polite and said that I wanted to talk to him about what had happened in the pattern. He didn't have a clue that anything had happened at all. He, too was very polite and invited me to have lunch with him. I explained exactly what had happened and he was very apolegetic. It seems that his wife of many years had been extremely ill for some time and this was his first time to get back in the airplane after a couple of years, he didn't know that the frequency had changed at Brenham (it had changed probably three years prior). I got the feeling that this was going to be his last flight (trust me, it was time), and after talking to him I really didn't feel so bad that he had tried to kill me twice. Bonus, I got a free lunch out of it!

I walked him to his airplane later and dialed in the new frequency and casually mentioned the runway in use and watched the old guy fly off into the sunset, thinking that at least he got to take his mind off of his sick wife and get a little stick time.

My point to this little story is you guys are right, you just never know exactly what is going on in the other airplane or the mind of the other guy, and even though the old guy made a series of mistakes, I can't help but cut him a break, some day it might be me in his shoes!

Oh yeah, and did I mention that AOPA has a good publication on "Operations at Nontowered Airports" at http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa08.pdf ??

David

JUST TO STIR THANGS UP A LIL BIT.

Lots of the same kind of incidents that occured with Hawkeye have been goin on for decades. Yes we want to be professional and focused on safety at all times but depending on anyone's "advisory" and/or radio expertise, to avoid an accident is one sure way to get some bent up sheet metal and possibly lose your life. Hawkeye,your "eyeball" ability is most certainly to be bragged on here. That is the very first line of defence when approaching an "UN-CONTROLLED" airport.

Years of flying in and out of "podunk" USA has let me see so many really stupid things that assures me there is no "pattern" to try to pigeon-hole pilots and their mental approach to "approach to land" at an un-controlled field.
I will relate a few and wait for others to relatre theirs.

When my sweetheart was taking flying lessons at the old "Noahs Ark" airport her instructor, a really "CERTIFIABLE" CFI, told her she would never learn to fly till she mastered the "trim" on the PA22 she was flying!! She was frustrated and angry with him so I advised her to dump him and we would find another instructor for her, which we did. The point here is - -two weeks later he was CFI-ing with a new student in another plane, a C150 . While doing pattern work, they landed on the TOP of an airplane who had pulled out onto the runway to take off! Who was to blame in that idiotic event? BOTH!!! It just goes to show that even experienced pilots make boo-boos. My comment to the CFI who was put on restrictions by the FAA was " Didn't you tell that student about how toTRIM the plane?

I was flying back to KC area out of northern Arkansas. I wsa under a 3000OVC but clear visibility. Broadcasting on ctaf "93D Down wind left for landing runway 30 Decatur. 93D turning left base landing R30. I just got wings level on base whe a Bonanza popped out of the clouds on a homade approach to "HIS" home field! I did a quick 360 and watched him land long. I had all my nav and landing light on and called 'catf' again to announce "93D two mile final for R30". The other pilot waited at the far end of the runway till I landed and turned around to back taxi to the little ramp. As we shut down and climbed out he taxiid up to his hangar door and shut down. Immediately he got out and walked over to me and stuck out his hand and said "Sir I really do appologise for that incident. I have been so used to having this airport to myself that I just got careless. I am very sorry! Well I accepted his explanation and also said I am just glad that I did see him and no I wouldn't need to call the FAA. We visited for a while and I made a good friend by being calm and (semi ) professiomal about the incident.

In my experience, alertness and a calm head are best tools for poking in and around little airports! IMHO

gahorn wrote:We need to remain cognizant of the possibilities that can exist out there at all times.

Great point George. I'm guilty of violating this common sense rule more often than not. Most of the time here at Tehachapi the wind blows hard enough that "runway in use" is normally obvious and not an issue (It's not "wind" until it hits 15 knots). I have a habit of checking "up" final for inbound traffic before turning final, but seldom conciously check for traffic coming from the runway. It could be that someone didn't notice the wind direction until on final the "wrong" way and is going around. The instructor I use for BFRs always harps on lifting the wing to clear the area toward the turn just before turning but it's habit that has yet to become ingrained.

Miles

The question about right of way and the discussion regarding who is right or wrong caused me to do some review of the AIM and FARs. FAR 91.126 and 91.127 basically state if operating at an airport in class G or E airspace the pilot should fly the pattern making left turns unless approved visual markings indicate otherwise. What the FARs do not define clearly is which runway at an uncontrolled airport should be considered the "active" runway. However, I suggest the wind sock or tetrahedron are included as part of "the runway markings and pattern indications" and as a result the pattern to be flown must be to the runway most favored by the current wind conditions. Therefore, it seems to me, if a pilot lands on a downwind runway (at an uncontrolled airport) he is in violation of 91.126 or 91.127. The same would be true for the guy who reports he is on a 10 mile straight in.

Robert Eilers wrote:The question about right of way and the discussion regarding who is right or wrong caused me to do some review of the AIM and FARs. FAR 91.126 and 91.127 basically state if operating at an airport in class G or E airspace the pilot should fly the pattern making left turns unless approved visual markings indicate otherwise. What the FARs do not define clearly is which runway at an uncontrolled airport should be considered the "active" runway. However, I suggest the wind sock or tetrahedron are included as part of "the runway markings and pattern indications" and as a result the pattern to be flown must be to the runway most favored by the current wind conditions. Therefore, it seems to me, if a pilot lands on a downwind runway (at an uncontrolled airport) he is in violation of 91.126 or 91.127. The same would be true for the guy who reports he is on a 10 mile straight in.

I think your reading too much into this, Robert. The FAR doesn't use the word pattern, it just says all turns must be made to the left when approaching to land. I don't believe it mandates a left turn, i.e. there is nothing illegal about a straight-in approach. It's bad idea with other airplanes in the pattern, but I do it myself with no reported traffic in the area. I don't consider it dangerous and regional carriers at uncontrolled fields do it all the time.

So what is the active runway when the winds are dead calm?

My pet-peeve is the occasional ding-dong at my home field that enters a right base leg, clearly a violation there! I usually make a comment on the freq about that...

Mid-airs are at the top of my list of aviation fears - my own 170 survived a
mid-air with a Continental Airlines DC-3 in 1956, and still has the dents to prove it! I bought one of those Monroy traffic detectors years ago, and consider it a valuable gadget, not up to TCAS like in my work airplane,
but better than nothing. Russ Farris

My mom gave me some good advice years ago when I was 15 years old and learning how to drive. She and I still use it today and it will always apply to driving and flying as well; "The idiot always has the right-of-way", Edith Pulley, 1966.

I still smile and mutter under my breath, "Idiot" every time I brake for, dodge, or bank out of the way of one. It beats getting mad.

I could not agree more with (Hilltop) Richard....and his Mom....
We all know folks who need to pull their head out of their hind end....and I am sure we all know others that need to pull out, take a deep breath and then re-insert...
We could have the death penalty for running a red light
However, folks are still going to run them
We all have to be attentive and cautious in our endeavours and not depend on rules or regulations to protect us from others actions....

Su Amigo,
Richard.....

That reference to the "10 mile final" is the one that causes lots of angst at un-controlled fields. Those pilots are arrogant and un-caring about the rights of the pilots already in the pattern and committed to land or needing to land. I managed our local Sabine Parish airport for several years. We were an airport that went under "control" when VFR minimums were encountered. Many times the semi-regular flights coming in on IFR would switch to "unicom" just to advise ME that they were on "approach" to 3R4. I would respond "no other traffic to advise". This was a courtesy of the flight crew and I appreciated it very much.

Some of those same pilots on CAVU days would be on an IFR flight plan and extend the same courtesy. Some others did not. I had to call a couple of them on their failure to consider other traffic in the pattern and request that they cancel their flight plan as soon as they had visual on our airport. Change to the unicom frequency and then slot themselves into the pattern with others already there. I seldom had any negative response but when I did, I suggested that our local FAA could possibly convince them of the need to alter their attitude and would they prefer that over just using common sense and courtesy at this airport! Problem usually went away

We had a Wal-Mart Commander calling for instructions about landing with a flat tire. They hadn't called a "may-day" but wondered if we had fire protection. I called upon our local VFD to bring in a fire engine and when it was in place alerted the crew that we were as ready for them as possible. """Now here is the JOKER""" There was a very experienced C310 owner/pilot who usually came in on his choice of runways and seldom called unicom. Too much of a "big shot" to bother with us little peons. I heard the Commander on a 4 mile final for runway 12 and then I look to the southeast and visually see JO-BLOW buzzing in for landing on 30. I dispatched one of the firefighters to hustle down the runway and block him from landing. I advised the WM crew that there was a renegade that possibly would require them to make a missed and to look for this traffic head on! Finally the 310 called and said "what the hell is going on and I scalded him with some choice words advising him of the situation. He peeled off to the south and of course the commander had to get back in the pattern and do his approach again. We all heaved a sigh of relief when that crew kept the big bird on the runway and stopped without incident. The runway was completely blocked about 1500' down the 3000' length. After we got the crew and passengers off the commander, cleared the fire truck and vehicles, I called the 310 pilot and told him he probably should divert his landing to another airport. His response "Aw I'm an old carrier pilot and I can land in that 1500'. I hadn't officially closed the airport so I didn't tell him "no". His landing was flawless and he stopped way short of the run-off end. As good as he did that, he still got really good "chewing out" by me as well as the FAA. They didn't "violate" him but did an excellent job of convincing him to use proper VFR procedures when it was VFR conditions.

I got a really nice letter from the Wal-Mart crew and from the corporate office. We had helped them get the jacks to lift the bird to install the new tire and wheel.

I got to know the pilot of the 310 a lot better and we are still pretty good friends. I don't know if it was a suggestion from the FAA or whether he did it on his own but he wrote an apology to that flight crew for causing them some more problems when they already had enough on their plate.

I saw several IFR flights go below minimums to land to pick up their pax. One really bad IFR day I told the guy waiting for this plane, I doubt if your pilot will be able to land. His response - -"Oh this is why we pay this guy so much MONEY He can land anywhere in any conditions !: Stupid equation!!! I wonder if the bozo ever saw a wreck cause by a "get thereitis"? BTW this guy’s final approach was horrible. All we had was an old NDB and this was before GPS over-lays. He came out of the 200' OVC about a mile south of the centerline and about the same distance from the touchdown zone! He had to really haul the King Air 90 around very hard to get it on the runway. I just cringed when he swaggered up like a rodeo cowboy and picked up this passengers bag and said “Come on Will (?) , they think I am still in the air! I heard later they let him go because someone reported his arrogance about minimums! Wonder who that was!

CAUTION ALL PARTICIPANTS: Flyguy/Ol'Gar is home from the horse-spittal having had some new bones installed. Apparently they also installed some "larnin'". Don't be fooled. Despite the apparent improvement in communication-skills, it's still him.

PEE-ESS - It ain't necess'ry, nor is it always legal to cancel an IFR flight plan when an airport is in sight in order to communicate with Unicom. (FAR 135 operators are not permitted to cancel until on the ground at uncontrolled fields.) Also, just because you're at an uncontrolled field doesn't mean an IFR arrival has broken the FAR's by arriving in low ceilings/visibilities. Most uncontrolled airports are in uncontrolled airspace. (doh) An IFR clearance or flight plan is not required for aircraft to fly on instruments in uncontrolled airspace. Therefore an arriving IFR aircraft may have used the approach to arrive at the uncontrolled airspace, and then proceeded to the runway in uncontrolled airspace quite legally. This is another reason for VFR operators to be especially cautious on low-weather days at uncontrolled fields. (And it's also a good reason not to get too worked up when it may appear that IFR arrivals really shouldn't be operating there. The situation on the ground is not likely the same as that from the IFR aircraft, and it also may explain why complaints to FAA seem ignored when some local pilot wants to play the air-traffic police.)
Back to Flyguys suggesstion, ... all aircraft are allowed to leave the controlling frequency to communicate with Unicom, FSS, or other facilities simply by advising ATC. The flight plan may be cancelled later/after-landing by radio or phone. Flyguy is keer-rect 'bout talkin' on the Unicom to determine runway in use and traffic, prior to arriving in the area, even if on an IFR flight plan.

(1) SINCE I AM NOT NOW OR EVER HAVE BEEN A PART 135 IFR RATED PILOT DOESN'T MEAN I CAINT REED RULES IN THE SOLILOQY I DIDN'T STATE ANYTHING ABOUT A REQUIREMENT TO CANCEL IFR. I JUST SUGGESTED TO THIS CLOWN THAT IF HE COULDN'T SWITCH TO THE CATF WHILE ON HIS "CAVU" IFR FLIGHT PLAN , MAYBE HE "SHOULD" CANCEL AND DO THE "COURTESY" OF JOINING THE "ADVISORY COMMUNITY" ALREADY IN THE PATTERN. MOST IFR CREWS DID JUST THAT.

(2) UNCONTROLLED FIELDS THAT HAVE A PUBLISHED INSTRUMENT APPROACH DO BECOME "CONTROLLED" AIRSPACE WHEN THE WX GOES BELOW VFR MINIMUM CONDITION.

(3) IS IT A VIOLATION TO, WHILE IN CONTACT WITH ATC ON A PUBLISDHED IFR APPROACH, TO GO BELOW MINIMUM DECENT ALTITUDES? I THINK SO! PROBABLY SOME VERY GOOD REASONS ARE - - UN-PUBLISHED OBSTRUCTIONS, SLIGHT INSTRUMENT ERROR AND HAZZARDS THAT CAN CHANGE A FLIGHT INTO A PILE OF RUBBISH. MOST OF THE FLIGHTS I HAD REAL CONCERN OVER WEREN'T THE ONES WHO WENT SLIGHTLY BELOW THE PUBLISHED MINIMUM BUT THOSE WHO WERE "SCUD RUNNING" AFTER FAILING TO OR REFUSING TO DO A "MISSED APPROACH'! POKING AROUND IN ESTIMATED 100' - 200' OVC AND 1/4 MILE IN ANY SITUATION IS PROBABLY A VIOLATION- CORRECT? HARD FOR ME TO BELIVE A KING AIR CAN LEGALLY FLY AROUND IN THOSE CONDITIONS LOOKING FOR THE AIRPORT TO LAND AND PICK UP PASSENGERS!

AN BTW I AINT GOT NO "BUNCH OF NEW" BONES. I GOTS ME A SHINEY NEW TITANIUM GEAR SHIFTER KNOB IN MY HIPPY JOINT!! THEM DRS WOIULDN'T GIVE ME MY OLE BROKE BALL BUT IMA SURE GONNA YELL LOUD IF THIS ONE HAS TO BE CHANGE AN THEY WANNA KEEP IT! THANG COSTED BOUT FORTY HUNNERT BUCKS

flyguy wrote:(1) SINCE I AM NOT NOW OR EVER HAVE BEEN A PART 135 IFR RATED PILOT DOESN'T MEAN I CAINT REED RULES IN THE SOLILOQY I DIDN'T STATE ANYTHING ABOUT A REQUIREMENT TO CANCEL IFR. I JUST SUGGESTED TO THIS CLOWN THAT IF HE COULDN'T SWITCH TO THE CATF WHILE ON HIS "CAVU" IFR FLIGHT PLAN , MAYBE HE "SHOULD" CANCEL AND DO THE "COURTESY" OF JOINING THE "ADVISORY COMMUNITY" ALREADY IN THE PATTERN. MOST IFR CREWS DID JUST THAT.

I'm just pointing out that cancellation is not required in order to communicate on Unicom. The cancellation can occur (and in some cases is required to occur) only after the aircraft has landed. In fact, by NOT cancelling the flight plan, the pilot is reserving his prerogative to execute a missed approach. If he had cancelled...and subsequently lost sight of the airport... he'd have no legal basis to climb back up where it's safe to contact ATC because he'd cancelled and had no further clearance. He might even find himself circling around in airspace that has been given over to another arriving aircraft...and there'd be no traffic seperation.
In any case: Any aircraft entering the traffic pattern at an uncontrolled field should communicate on the advisory frequency/unicom.

flyguy wrote:(2) UNCONTROLLED FIELDS THAT HAVE A PUBLISHED INSTRUMENT APPROACH DO BECOME "CONTROLLED" AIRSPACE WHEN THE WX GOES BELOW VFR MINIMUM CONDITION.

Nope. Airspace desginations do not change with the weather. Uncontrolled (non-towered) airports may lie within controlled airspace. They also may not. Many uncontrolled airports lie within uncontrolled airspace yet have published instrument approaches.

flyguy wrote:(3) IS IT A VIOLATION TO, WHILE IN CONTACT WITH ATC ON A PUBLISDHED IFR APPROACH, TO GO BELOW MINIMUM DECENT ALTITUDES? ... POKING AROUND IN ESTIMATED 100' - 200' OVC AND 1/4 MILE IN ANY SITUATION IS PROBABLY A VIOLATION- CORRECT?

Nope. Foolish maybe. But not necessarily illegal.

Example: An aircraft performs a published instrument approach to an uncontrolled airport and identifies ground features which he associates with the airport. He leaves his IFR flight planned course and maneuvers to the airport in uncontrolled airspace. (Flying with less than 1 mile and in/out of clouds is legal in uncontrolled airspacewithout clearance provided airplane and crew are IFR qualified/equipped.) Observers on the ground ...especially those who are not qualifiedweather observers... may not be capable of accurately determining whether or not the aircraft is being operated legally or not. An "experienced" person on the qround also may not be in a position to accurately determine if the aircraft is being operated legally or not.

Moral: Just because an airplane is arriving via an IFR flight plan does not absolve the pilot of communicating on the advisory frequency at uncontrolled airports. Just because the weather appears lower than published approach minimums to an observer on the ground is not sufficient reason to assume arriving aircraft are breaking the law.

The airport at Many, LA is in uncontrolled airspace. The floor of controlled airspace is 700 AGL within 5 miles of Many. (This is indicated by the magenta circle. If controlled airspace went all the way down to the ground it would be depicted by a dashed-line-circle.) The NDB approach brings an airplane down to 600' AGL. Therefore a pilot descending on that approach reaches uncontrolled airspace prior to the end of the approach and, if he has reference to the airport, may continue and land.



The little airfield at the extreme left of the illustration is uncontrolled Ammons Field. Controlled airspace begins/ends at 1200 AGL above that airport. The guy who lives at the extreme south end of that runway is extremely uncontrolled. (Tho' Deannie is workin' on getting him out of the house!)

Not a big deal but I think the floor of Class E airspace above Many is 700' AGL. Magenta is a transition area for an associated IFR approach.

Don't let your guard down when you go to controlled fields either! I know the controllers do the best they can but you really have to remain alert.

I don't mean to sound heartless but the old man in dacker's story had no business flying by himself. Having a sick wife is no excuse to put other people's lives in danger. Just because it is his last flight is no reason to make it someone else's last flight also.