Firearms/Ramp-checks/TSA ramp-security rules

[PilotMikeTX]

George,
A lot of what you wrote regarding the Texas laws is wrong or outdated. To wit, it is now legal to carry a weapon in your vehicle at any time as long as it isn't in plain sight or you aren't otherwise prohibited from posessing a weapon. http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/ ... 01815F.htm

It is also not required to tell a police officer that you are legally carrying a weapon during a traffic stop. It is suggested by DPS that you inform the officer. If they ask, you have to tell them, and you are required to present your CHL to a LEO if requested. No different than a driver's license or pilot's license for that matter.

Regarding carriage of firearms in aircraft: There is no FAA or DOT prohibition from carrying weapons or ammunition in a non-commercial (part 91) aircraft. Any firearms laws would be the subject to the jurisdiction of wherever your plane happened to be sitting. The FAA can't fault you for any weapon related funny business during a ramp check. Now if you had it illegally mounted somehow, that's another story...

[GAHorn]

Thanks for correcting me, Mike.
I guess I missed that Perry actually signed HB1815. (The version in the link you posted was not the version which he signed, according to Google.)
OK, so,.. basically all the bill did was delete the requirement to be a traveller to carry a handgun in the car. A handgun now has the same status as a rifle/shotgun, with the added requirement that the handgun not be in plain sight. (We'll have to hide it under the 6-pack.) It didn't affect much else, despite all the NRA-hoopla.

(I'll delete the previous incorrect info I posted. Remember I'm not a lawyer and this ain't legal advice.)

[PilotMikeTX]

I think they passed the "Castle Doctrine" law at the same time. I think that got most of the NRA hoopla. Now you don't have to back yourself into a corner before you zip a bad guy. I'm glad they rewrote the vehicle part, though. The law just said "traveling" and did not define what traveling was. It was pretty vague. I don't know if there was case law to support the "crossing 2 county lines for 24 hours", but I could never find it.

[bentley]

I HAVE been the recipient of 2 ramp checks. The first and most memorable was around 1988 when a C182 loaded with three badge wearing FAA folks followed me to my hangar. They played good cop/bad cop while I went through 45 min of “inspection” including all manner of aircraft and pilot documentation. Seeing a commercial certificate they seemed to think I was being compensated for the day’s flight without Pt 135 record keeping. If you count a hamburger compensation they were right. I mean they looked at EVERYTHING! It became apparent that they were not going to leave until they “discovered” something so I cautiously offered up that I had less than ¼ “ tread on one main tire to which they wrote a little note in a little book and were on their way.
The second was recently, and again there was nothing voluntary about it. It was in one of the work aircraft and following a prop strike I had voluntarily notified the local FSDO to be sure I was complying with possible reporting requirements. An inspector subsequently paid me a visit at the hangar and spent approximately 18 seconds looking at the bent prop…..then the next HOUR pouring over aircraft records, pilot certificates, W&B docs etc. The irony here is that as a public use aircraft I could have asked then insisted that he step away from the aircraft as he had no authority to even so much as look at the machine. However, similar to an IRS inquiry I suspected that this was not a good road to go down as they would be back and have another visit to my C170 hangar, no doubt to check on that tire tread depth again. Lesson learned……have all the paperwork in order, give them a bone so they can walk away satisfied that they “discovered” something, and volunteer NOTHING!

[GAHorn]

From AOPA: http://www.aopa.org/members/files/topics/rmpcheck.html

"Ramp ChecksPilots are expected to conduct flights safely and remain in compliance with the Federal Aviation Regulations. The FAA conducts "ramp checks" to ensure pilots maintain these expectations. Though generally straightforward, some ramp checks end up with enforcement actions against the pilot. This subject report provides guidance and suggestions on how to properly handle an FAA ramp check.

A typical check involves the inspection of the pilot's airman and medical certificates and aircraft paperwork and an exterior inspection of an aircraft. The inspector may use a "Job Aid" during the inspection; this aid helps demystify the expectations. A cooperative and diplomatic attitude will usually result in a positive ramp inspection.

An FAA ramp check may occur when an inspector:

Observes an unsafe operation in the traffic pattern or in the ramp.
Is notified by ATC of an unsafe operation.
Conducts normal surveillance.
The typical ramp inspection for most noncommercial operations is during normal surveillance. The aviation safety inspector will usually present identification before conducting a ramp inspection. If you suspect you are subject of a ramp inspection and the individual does not present identification, you may ask for it, and the inspector is required to present it.

The check basically involves a review of the airman and the aircraft. The findings from both are usually noted on the FAR Part 91 Ramp Inspection Job Aid.

The inspector is not authorized to detain you if it means missing a flight or making an engagement. They may only keep you long enough to check the required paperwork.

If requested, the pilot is required to present his or her pilot and medical certificates and, if applicable, the logbook. Logbooks are required for the following flights:

Student pilots are required to carry logbooks on all solo cross-country flights.
Sport pilots are required to carry logbooks or other evidence of required instructor endorsements on all flights.
Recreational pilots are required to carry logbooks with required instructor endorsements on all solo flights that exceed 50 nm from the airport at which the training was received; within the airspace that requires communication with ATC; between sunset and sunrise; or in an aircraft for which the pilot is not appropriately rated in the category and class.
Flight instructors with sport pilot ratings must carry their logbooks or other evidence of endorsements on all flights when providing flight training.
All other pilots are advised to keep their logbooks at home. Don't be alarmed if the inspector begins noting this information on his Job Aid. Presenting the documentation is required but not physically releasing the documents.

The pilot certificate is inspected to ensure the airman has the proper certificate and ratings for operations conducted, such as instrument operations requiring an instrument rating on the pilot's certificate. The medical is checked for proper class; conducting commercial operations requires at least a second class medical. If applicable, the logbook will be checked for records of currency (e.g., flight review, instrument currency, and landings and takeoffs for passengers).

The inspector is not authorized to board your aircraft without the knowledge of the crew. They may inspect the exterior and look through windows.

The inspector is authorized to inspect:

The airworthiness certificate.
The aircraft registration.
The operating handbook.
The weight and balance information.
The minimum equipment list (if applicable).
Aeronautical charts (if applicable).
The general airworthiness of the aircraft.
The ELT battery.
A VOR check.
The seats/safety belts.
AOPA suggests cooperating with the inspectors, and the following may help reduce the time and scope of the inspection:

Be courteous and cooperative.
Be busy; FAA inspectors are not authorized to delay you for any great length of time.
Do not volunteer more information than is absolutely required.
Keep in an easily referenced location at least the following information:
Your medical and pilot certificate.
Logbook (only for student pilots).
Airworthiness certificate (displayed at the cabin or cockpit entrance (91.203).
Aircraft registration.
Approved flight manual or operating handbook.
Weight and balance data.
Current charts appropriate for flight (VFR and IFR).
If the ramp check is due to a possible violation, anything you say or do may be used against you.

If you have enrolled in AOPA's Legal Services Plan, call AOPA's Pilot Information Center at 800/USA-AOPA immediately. The consequences for even minor infractions can be far more serious than you might think. If you have not enrolled in AOPA's Legal Services Plan, call AOPA to speak with an aviation specialist about how best to proceed.

For more information, read FAA Order 8700.1, Chapter 56, Conduct A FAR Part 91 Ramp Inspection and AOPA's Overview of FAA Enforcement." (at the two following links) - GAHorn

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/exam ... tors/8700/

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/guide ... .html#ramp

[Jr.CubBuilder]

Why the VOR check? Is that assuming you have an IFR certified plane?

[bentley]

My ramp checks followed what GH indicated to the letter. However on both the tone was very acusatory and I was essentially guilty (of something though not sure what) until I could prove otherwise, which I did item by item. The inspectors even questioned paint seals on inspection plate screws charging that the inspection plates had not been removed for annual inspections. When I pointed out that there was no such seal on the plate itself indicating that indeed the plate had been removed after the aircraft had been painted (like at each annual) AND that I customarily used to dab a spot of paint on each screw after reinstall as a back-out measure....submitting several tiny paint brushes and 35mm film canisters with the appropraite color of paint residue they were only partially satisfied. Only after closely examining (yes with a little mag glass) nearly every inspection plate did they come to the conclusion that each plate in fact was not "sealed" and that they were simply dealing with a detail orriented owner who buttons up the aircraft himself following annual inspections.
Over the years I have run across ramp checks at fly-ins on several occasions. At these events inspectors strolled down the parking line looking at aircraft (funny how the owner/operators never seemed to be around right at that time) noting discepancies and writing in books. While I apparently "passed" these weekend harrassment sessions I more than once talked to unlucky fly-in attendees who received notes poked in door frames and in one case was not allowed to leave the fly-in as he lacked documentation for large wheels if I remember correctly. Point being.......while courteous, these checks amounted to harrassment, did nothing to enhance safety, generally did not focus on air worthiness issues but instead fostered and promoted the us vs them scenario. Maybe just a regional thing but fly-in attendance at specific venues dropped significantly, not coorelated to fuel prices or economic state, when word got out that you could expect a shake down on Saturday.

[futr_alaskaflyer]

"Courtesy Ramp Check"? In my entire 35+ years in law enforcement I don't recall ever participating in a "courtesy" car stop. The Federal Aviation Administration is responsible for enforcement of the FARs. The FAA is not there to help.

Well, in my 18+ years in LE I have participated in thousands. They were called "verbal warnings"

Seriously, I have participated in several similar activities including child car seat checks, vehicle and VIN inspections etc. where the point was public relations instead of enforcement.

Maybe it is my mindset but I don' think there are near enough "ramp checks." My thoughts on this are reinforced weekly as I read each and every one of the new NTSB fatality reports, for my own edification.

OBTW I don't see the possession of a weapon in the cockpit as mattering one bit to any FAA inspector.

[futr_alaskaflyer]

Point being.......while courteous, these checks amounted to harrassment, did nothing to enhance safety, generally did not focus on air worthiness issues but instead fostered and promoted the us vs them scenario.

Sounds like they did their job to me Did anyone receive a notice of violation that was later found to be unsubstantiated?

On my one experience I took my medicine, acknowledged that as PIC (and even worse the owner) I was responsible for the problem and corrected it promptly. I didn't blame the messenger. Was the FAA there to help? Well, I never expected a tickle under my chin or free cookies with every inspection

If only everyone possessed your attitude about attention to detail and concern for your aircraft (which no doubt carries over to your piloting skills) the public would have no need for inspectors, nor would there be many if any fatality reports for me to read on Sunday mornings Alas, it is not so

[GAHorn]

...OBTW I don't see the possession of a weapon in the cockpit as mattering one bit to any FAA inspector.

No, but one in-the-hand definitely speeds up their inspection!

[PilotMikeTX]

...OBTW I don't see the possession of a weapon in the cockpit as mattering one bit to any FAA inspector.

No, but one in-the-hand definitely speeds up their inspection!

I did a BFR for a cop who told me that while he was sitting on the ramp with the engine idling, the FAA man came up from behind and opened his door. The cop saw his reflection in the window out of his peripheral and when the guy grabbed the door handle, he grabbed his gun and stuck in the Fed's forehead. He reached across and pulled the mixture with his left hand and then got down to business. He said the FAA was very apologetic after his near death experience and didn't want anything to do with the cop/pilot. He said he told the Fed he wanted him to write in his logbook that the ramp check was satisfactory. The Fed said they don't do that. The cop said, "Yes you do."

I listened politely, as I hear a lot of BS from BFR customers, but was secretly thinking

Anyway when I went to write his endorsement in his logbook, he flips to the back and shows me an entry that says something like "02 Mar 92 Ramp Check OK. --Inspector Cluesoe SAT FSDO" No s**t.

[voorheesh]

As usual, George does an amazingly thorough job of describing a ramp check. The FAA should actually put him to work and get these inspectors up to speed because I doubt that most are going to go into the depth he described. The FAA can look at charts all they want, for example, but there is no reg requiring current charts (Part 91). The AIM states that the FAA "encourages" pilots to have current charts. If you bust a rule that could have been prevented by having current charts, the fact that you did not will probably be cited as evidence of a careless operation. A public aircraft is not immune from a ramp check. There are some rules that do not apply to public aircraft and their pilots, but for the most part they must comply with the operating regs and the FAA has a responsibility to oversee their operations as much as any other user. The biggest problem that I hear comes up during ramp checks is the condition of the airplane. Oil leaks, blatant corrosion, untreated cracks, improper repairs, deferred maintenance, the list goes on. Stuff that most people would shudder if they found it in an automobile. But guys are out there flying with it. I still maintain that these represent less than 1% of general aviation as a whole and it is obvious that the FAA has to do something about it. It is in our interest as peers to keep our reputation high so there will not be additional unnecessary rules imposed. So we should not feel bad when an unairworthy airplane is cited. Pilots and airplane owners have the same rights as any other citizens and are not compelled to provide incriminating evidence to the FAA. That agency respects AOPA and the representation it provides.
Bentley had "accusatory" inspectors and that is just evidence of the fact that jerks are among us. Has anyone gone through life and not run into a jerk? (I am sure some of you think I am a jerk) Most FAA inspectors are professional and just trying to do their job. There is no reason for anyone to be disrespectful. I have a friend who is a police officer who describes it well: "I may have to arrest someone who just killed my partner or who has done some unspeakable act, but once in custody deserves the dignity that is the right of any human being. That is what separates us from criminals". That may be too strong a sentiment when applied to an FAA inspector but I think we can all understand the point.

[jrenwick]

Early in this thread I asked for people's experiences on ramp checks. Thanks to all who responded! But I'm really interested in knowing how long ago these experiences occurred, because the FAA's procedures and goals may have changed over time.

38 years ago I bought my J3 -- a flying basket case, but I was too green at this game to know it. It was soon ramp-checked by Fred Mau of the Honolulu GADO. He dinged me for an expired airworthiness certificate (they used to expire annually, ya know), a missing data plate, and the lack of a compass card. A smart AI could have found any number of reasons to ground the airplane, but Mr. Mau only looked at the documentation he could see. Maybe he was delivering a subtle hint that I had deeper problems I should look into, but if so, it was lost on me. I went to visit him, and he gave me a current airworthiness certificate on the spot. Piper mailed me a data plate free for the asking (they won't do that today), and a mechanic gave me a compass card. So I was set until the annual inspection came due, and after that I didn't fly it again until about 17 years later when I'd found enough money, and (finally, after a couple of false starts) the mechanic who could put all right again.

Recently I heard a guy from the MSP FSDO say that ramp checks consist only of checking the pilot's credentials, and I don't know whether that's FAA policy, or just his. Does anyone have recent experience with a ramp check that went deeper than that, barring any evidence of a possible violation, and not part of the investigation of a possible incident or accident?

John

[W.J.Langholz]

[
(I am sure some of you think I am a jerk) .........I enjoy your contributions .......now that George guy well that's another story

W.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

I've not been ramp checked while not working. The few times I was checked the inspectors identified themselves and first said that they did not want to delay me or my work in anyway. They asked for my licenses and looked at the aircraft airworthiness certificate. They looked at the overall condition on the helicopter from the outside and that was it. No big deal.

As Voorheesh said there are jerks in the FAA inspector ranks just as there are jerks in the police forces and just about any where else you look.

I have found in the FAA about 1 in ten are jerks, 2 in ten can be jerks depending on the time of day, 4 in ten try not to be jerks but they do have their day, leaving about 3 in ten you hardly ever hear bad things about. Problem is as the inspector approaches you your not likely to know which type is approaching you. I've heard the ratio of pilot owners the inspectors approach is about the same.

Let the games begin.