The International Cessna^® 170 Association

Please George, have you NO compassion?? I’m so glad you aren’t critical of “dead pilots”; only ones with compression fractures and broken ribs! As moderator of this forum, it seems to me that you, of all people, should be a little slower to start throwing stones. Perhaps your post on Thu, Jun 14,2007, 2:28 PM was an apology of sorts, it is frankly hard for me to tell. I hope it was.

Was Sparky actually in the airplane for hire? Was he acting as PIC? Was he really taking notes at the time of the crash? I’m not trying to defend JC or Sparky. They made a serious mistake. They are fortunate to have survived as well as they did. JC was a member of the Montana mountain search pilots. I lived on the Rocky Mountain Front in Montana for most of my life and what JC was attempting to learn and become more proficient at would have been beneficial to him and to those who he was searching for.

I own a 406 EPIRB. I almost always have it in the airplane with me. Where I live it is more important than in Montana. I don’t always have it on my person. I believe the reason Sparky left the crash site was to try to get to a place where he might have cell phone reception because he left his EPIRB with his wife and the ELT had burned up in the airplane. If we learn nothing else from this accident it should be that there are times when the only survival items one will have is what is on their back.

Buck Buchanan, Galena, AK

I appreciate your opinion, Buck. It's a good one. I wasn't acting as a moderator. I was just being an opinionated person disgusted with someone who publicly put the blame off on someone else for his own error. If that was unbecoming I guess I deserve the criticism.

George, I didn’t think you were acting in the capacity as moderator. I believe you carry a certain status within the group, most of it well deserved I might add, however with that “status” comes the responsibility of knowing others look up to and respect your opinions. I just think your opinions should be more temperate. That is my opinion.

I didn’t know Sparky had criticized JC publicly. I haven’t searched all the different forums though so I may have missed it.

Please don’t let the most important part of my post go un-noticed. WEAR THE SURVIVAL GEAR YOU HAVE TO HAVE WITH YOU.

Buck………..Galena

George and all,

If you want to read a good, as complete as I have seen, scenario of what happened in the Sparky and JC accident, I suggest you go to http://www.backcountrypilot.org/ and look for the thread.This is a really good forum, by the way, no personal attacks, mostly constructive etc. By the way George I think making that personal attack by 171TD on vorheesh (sp) “go away” was well done!!

One of our own Mike Vivion was in Townsend when the accident occurred.

Let’s get off our high horse(s) and get to things constructive.


Buck Buchanan, Galena, AK

I've read those and nothing new is offered.... it's not something "complete"...but is clearly a lot of nice support from friends, as one would hope such friends would be.

Here's some pertinent info directly from the AOPA interview (which first "sparked" my interest.) They are not the complete article but are pertinent sentences. Read them to see if they contribute anything. It leads one to believe the other pilot was a "student" and that Imeson was the mountain-expert-instructor giving instruction on the flight.

"Sparky Imeson, author, lecturer, and mountain flying expert, was injured while giving tips to a pilot on the last day of a Montana Pilots Association mountain flying safety clinic...

(They both) suffered crushed vertebrae in the June 3 accident. Imeson also suffered broken ribs and a broken toe while the student had a broken leg.

(Student) Kantorowicz, certified by the state as a mountain search pilot, said the two had been flying at 500 feet in canyons for a half hour before the crash. Imeson decided the two could descend to 300 feet after observing the performance capability of the Husky.

Imeson had left his personal locator beacon with his wife.

Imeson was discovered last because he left the crash site...

Is Imeson planning any new books soon? "Maybe one on how to survive a crash," he joked from his hospital room ..."

I have a mild suggestion that major reason he was returned to civilization was because the taxpayers paid for a huge search operation that found him, the next day, despite his leaving the scene. Now... I know some of you are non-plussed that I appear to be criticising the instructor. But step back a minute and imagine ... why would a "mountain flying expert" disregard his own best advice? (Have you ever abandoned your briefed plan of action for a flight? Does this accident affect how you will behave in the future?) Who was ultimately responsible for this accident? .... (which will probably be blamed on flying too low, too slow, in mountainous terrain, and contributed to by pilot error in failing to maintain flying speed?) Will you recognize your own responsibility next time you're out on an instructional flight?
I'm not trying to fix unfair blame. I hope we'll all learn from this.

(PS-Curiously, AOPA's article has since been edited (June 11) and completely dropped it's previous quotes from Imeson in which he reportedly said he was not monitoring the situation but was instead "taking notes for a later briefing" while the accident scenario was setup and in which he blamed an "unforecast mountain downdraft which turned to windshear which then turned into a tailwind".... and his description of his corrective action as a scream at the student "nose down", and subsequent comments in which he appeared to lay responsibility for the crash on the student.
I don't know why AOPA edited out those statements (but I suspect they decided it wasn't good to give the lawyers fuel for their fires.) While the newspaper article gave very little real information about causes, it was the AOPA report that instigated my msg post.
It'll be interesting to someday read the NTSB report, if any. Either way, I'm disappointed that he disregarded his preflight brief and encouraged a student to descend too close to terrain (something he doubtless critiqued others for doing) and then failed to take prompt corrective action to prevent a serious crash and susbequent injuries.
Regardless of how it may appear, if the report bears out to be factual that along with the big round of back-slapping congratulations, a stark look at reality might help others to avoid the same mistake.
They're both expected to recover.

gahorn wrote: (PS-Curiously, AOPA's article has since been edited (June 11) and completely dropped it's previous quotes from Imeson in which he reportedly said he was not monitoring the situation but was instead "taking notes for a later briefing" while the accident scenario was setup and in which he blamed an "unforecast mountain downdraft which turned to windshear which then turned into a tailwind".... and his description of his corrective action as a scream at the student "nose down", and subsequent comments in which he appeared to lay responsibility for the crash on the student.

I think this, in part, has contributed to the nature of the discussion here. I too was wondering what some of your comments were based on since, after reading the AOPA article and posting from the various newspapers, I could not find references to the note taking and blame placement you mentioned.

It's important to remind ourselves that the internet is a fluid environment and even sites from which we've come to expect stability (like our favorite news sources) are prone to updates and revisions with no notice to the reader that such things have taken place.

doug8082a wrote: It's important to remind ourselves that the internet is a fluid environment and even sites from which we've come to expect stability (like our favorite news sources) are prone to updates and revisions with no notice to the reader that such things have taken place.

Good point. I would apply that to ALL media outlets who are quick to a story and instant "analysis". I've found that it is far better to wait for the FULL facts to emerge from the parties responsible for investigating these accidents before throwing stones. Many times I have been surprised by the outcome, and found that the wrong conclusion as to who or what was to blame.

I echo Doug’s thoughts. I read the AOPA article but, I assume, not until after it had been edited.

I will be interested to read Mike Vivion’s take on it. He, like some of the rest of us, usually has an opinion on matters such as this. His opinion may be more relevant since he was at there. How about it Mike??

Buck, Galena

Thoughts after catching up on this thread...

PIC vs the Silverback: The Silverback, when in the right seat and not acting as PIC, has the duty and unwritten responsibility to assert his or her opinion in the interest of upholding the safety of the situation, but should not contribute to the PIC pushing their limits. The situation can be reversed with clearly expressed roles in the cockpit I think.

JC was pushing his limits under the guidance of Sparky, with the understanding that Sparky would alert him to any perils. In this capacity, I think Sparky bears the responsibility. I think that anytime either one of the pilots' is uncomfortable is not the time to be discrete.

I've been much more vocal in this forum than at BCP...partly because no one has been that critical over there. Any of these forums is no more accurate than a campfire discussion. I can't find a preliminary NTSB record yet.

I also look forward to Mike Vivion's take on it. He's a knowlegeable and fair-minded guy. (I don't mean to unfairly place blame. I was mostly disappointed in the early interview in which his quotes blamed the client/student. I hope that was reported erroneously.)

It's interesting that Sparky was able to fly his own plane with "with broken bones all over his body" several days after this accident according to the Fly-Low website. He's one tough cookie. I rather doubt this fits in the bounds of FAR 61.53 http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/te ... 32&idno=14

Following an accident that left one of its pilots a parapalegic JAARS engineered seats with an "S" frame that collapses on high vertical G impact. They and MAF use it in their Helio Couriers and C-185s and 206s. Sparky and JC might have avoided their back injuries with such a seat. Unforturnately, because of possible litigation, JAARS chose not to market the seat.