The International Cessna^® 170 Association

Yep. It's 700 AGL for the Transition floor at Many. Sorry for the typo. (corrected) Thanks.

KMAC, I didn't mean to imply that it was OK for the old man to make the mistakes that he did, just that he did make mistakes and he probably realized that his time flying solo is up (at least we can hope). Very few go on a flight planning to be dangerous or to cause an accident. There will probably come a time in most of our lives that we will realize that it is time to give up our passion of flying... most likely after we over estimate our abilities one day and scare ourselves silly. But it certainly wasn't my place to decide that for the old fellow. It wasn't like the man had alzheimers and was in another dimension, he simply wanted to go for another $100 hamburger and revisit a passion, then made some dangerous mistakes... similar to the ones that many others make. This was probably his eye opener. I did as much as I could to try to get him pointed in the right direction.

By the way, did I mention to you guys to check out the AOPA safety publication http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa08.pdf ?? (Third hint)
Any comments?

David

HEEEE HEEEE~~~~~~~~ ~@~@~ WAL SINCE IMA KINA BROK IN SOM DIFFERENT PIECES IMA GONNA HAFTE HAVE SUM DIVERTSHUN FROM BORIN TELLY SHOWS AND THIS HYEAR ISA GOOD WAY TO GIT DIVERTED AND STIR UP SOME STUFF TOO

LINE BY LINE OLE GAY HORN AVOIDS CORNERIN HIS WAYWARD BIG SHOT STUDENT IFR BY GOSH PILUTS! IT ISSNOT ONLIEST IN THE THE FOLERIN THE RULES MOS OF UIS HAF TO LIVE BY (OR DYE BYE) BUT ATTYTUDE.

KAY - GAY qweshun 1 WHAT IS "MDA"? DOES FAA JES PUT IT THERE FOR A MAYBE THIS IS AS LOW AS U SHUD GO OR IS IT A RULE FOR PILOTS TO OBEY.?

MANY TIMES WHEN THE CEILINGS WERE 700' (AGL BTW) I COULD FLY FROM 3R4 TO 5LS9 AND NEVER EVEN GET INTO LOW VISIBILITY. I DEFINATELY WOULD AVOID THE AREA OF THE NDB APPROACH TO THE AIRPORT BECAUSE THERE WOULD ALWAYS BE THE POSSIBILITY OF AN IFR FLIGHT COMING INTO VIEW OUT OF THE LOW OVERCAST. I DIDN'T MAKE A HABIT OF FLYING WHEN THE CEILINGS WERE DOWN ON THE TOPS OF THE TALL PINES EVEN THOUGH I KNEW THE ROUTE BETWEEN 3R4 AND MY HOUSE BY HEART. NOWE THERE WERE TIMES HERE IN THE PINEY WOODS THAT THE MANY AIRPORT WOULD BE ZERO/ZERO AND HOME WOULD BE 1500 SCT WITH A MILE OR MORE. THEN OTHER TIMES IT WOULD BE EXACTLY REVERSED. THE NDB APPROACH SIGNAL WAS NOT EXACTLY ON THE 30/12 CENTER LINE AND IT WAS WEST OF THE AIRPORT WHERE THE "LAKE EFFECT WOULD SOMETIMES MAKE A MARKED DIFFERENCE IN CEILING HEIGHT AND VISIBILITY. BUT WOULD THE CREW BE ABLE TO ASCERTAIN ANY BETTER CONDITIONS BY DECENDING THROUGH MDA? MAYBE OR MAYBE IT WOULD BE BAD ALL THE WAY TO THE GROUND

qweshun 2 . NOW SAY IM AM IFR RATED AN DECIDE TO POKE HOLES INNA CLOUDS CAUSE I CAN DO IT WITH OUT EASYR GITTIN KILL. AN OLE SMOKIN JOE HESA IFR TOO AND WESA BOTHE SMOKIN ROUN WITHOUT ATC OR EENYBODIE TELLIN US NOTHIN AND WESA SMAK TO GETHER OU THAR IN UNCONTROOL AIRSPACE WHATSA OUR INNYSHURE MAN GONNA SAY? WHATSA FAA GONNA SAY?

I quit tryin to be funny when death stares me down and [u]dacker[/u] has it right when he wrote this ""most likely after we over estimate our abilities one day and scare ourselves silly "" Been there done it more than once and it has left a bad taste in my mouth .

Thanks for the link to AOPA Non-Towered Airports. Excellent. Tells all.

dacker wrote:There will probably come a time in most of our lives that we will realize that it is time to give up our passion of flying... most likely after we over estimate our abilities one day and scare ourselves silly...
David

Unfortunately, we will one day get in our airplanes either knowing it will be the last time, or not knowing it will be the last time.

Miles

cessna170bdriver wrote: Unfortunately, we will one day get in our airplanes either knowing it will be the last time, or not knowing it will be the last time.

Miles

OR CLIMB ONTO THE LADDER

flyguy wrote:...KAY - GAY qweshun 1 WHAT IS "MDA"? DOES FAA JES PUT IT THERE FOR A MAYBE THIS IS AS LOW AS U SHUD GO OR IS IT A RULE FOR PILOTS TO OBEY.?.. .

MDA (Minimum Descent Alttitude) is the lowest a pilot may descend on an approach until reaching the MAP. If he then has the airport/runway environment in sight he may continue to descend and land.
The problem as we were discussing it is, it's almost impossible for an observer on the ground to determine the conditions observed by the pilot of the aircraft. Personally, I would never continue descent unless I saw the airport runway or lighting system associated with a runway.

Flying around in uncontrolled airspace in instrument conditions is legal for an instrument rated pilot with an appropriately equipped airplane. Whether that is a safe thing to do or not is a relative matter. There's a lot less of that kind of airspace around these days than there used to be.
I would have to know the situation before I could make a decision for myself, but I have flown in uncontrolled airspace in instrument conditions several times in the last 35 years. In none of those instances did I ever feel as endangered as I did in the Houston area while under ATC control, or in the DFW area when breaking out from an approach into local traffic at non-towered Arlington. Those people are nuts.

gahorn wrote:

flyguy wrote:...KAY - GAY qweshun 1 WHAT IS "MDA"? DOES FAA JES PUT IT THERE FOR A MAYBE THIS IS AS LOW AS U SHUD GO OR IS IT A RULE FOR PILOTS TO OBEY.?.. .

The problem as we were discussing it is, it's almost impossible for an observer on the ground to determine the conditions observed by the pilot of the aircraft. Personally, I would never continue descent unless I saw the airport runway or lighting system associated with a runway.

Those people are nuts.

WAL I TOLE U IFN I AMA STANIN ON THU GROUN AN CAN'T SEE TU THE TOPS OF THU TREES IMA SPICIOUS THAT AINT EVEN CLOSE TU 700'AGL

a respected friend wrote: Under most circumstances, IFR in uncontrolled airspace should be limited to 1. a published IFR approach where the MDA happens to penetrate Class G. 2. an IFR departure from an airport with Class G airspace where you have to climb (typically on an obstacle departure procedure) to Class E airspace where the IFR clearance takes effect. Pilots need to know that the biggest safety implication under 1 and 2 is there is no IFR separation in Class G airspace and VFR traffic can be there legally with visibilities as low as 1 mile. Obstacle clearance can be assured by adhering to published IFR approaches and DPs. There are circumstances where IFR in Class G can be done safely by professionals with carefully planned procedures but most GA operators do not do this often. When making any IFR approach, the term "Flight Visibility" or the visibility determined by the pilot in the cockpit is the most critical factor in safely completing it. This is the visibility you refer to that a ground observer has no way of knowing. It is during this phase of the approach that the pilot determines safe height and course to the runway without the assistance of minimums. ... I spent 24 years flying for a large west coast regional airline and was a check airman for 20 of those years. Even though we have good wx out here, we have low IFR approaches all the time (coast/summer and valley/winter). Our flight department trained and stressed flight visibility always. We were taught and tested to identify flight visibility references and to continually monitor our ability to control the airplanes safely. If we lost these references it was an automatic missed approach. They never encouraged us to do "look/see" or "duck under" approaches and I can honestly say the majority of our guys would hit MDA or DH and do it by the book. We never had an accident. ... I have been shocked at the attitude of (some) pilots who boast about "always getting in" having "special" approaches" etc. I have seen several fatal accidents where pilots have clearly strayed from published routes/minimums. ... Don't forget ... to "stick to the straight and narrow". We'll live longer. By the way, best of the holidays to you.

My experiences of instrument flight in un-controlled airspace mostly precede the present identification of airspace. What is now termed " Class G" used to be quite common in large areas of West Texas as late as the early '70's. It sometimes reached up as high as 14'K MSL. (There was no instrument clearances available in those areas at all, and it was legal, although with the associated hazards of traffic/obstacles, to fly IFR in there. I don't know of any such airspace today in large areas, except that found below 1200' AGL... of course obstacles are a definite hazard below 1200'!) At that time I had a job flying pipeline patrol along defined routes, along which I had a thorough knowlege of obstacles and along which, and at altitudes which, the potential for traffic conflicts were virtually "zero." Many times the pipeline was patrolled by patrol pilots in visibilities approaching zero along such routes. I believe that the practice was considered suicidal by anyone not familiar with the pipeline, but hundreds of miles of such pipelines were regularly inspected by such techniques by many patrol pilots, especially along marshland/coastal areas (long before helicopter operations were common there) and in remote areas of West Texas/Oklahoma. I'd not even consider doing it these days, and the practice did not take into consideration the rule about separation from people and property... it would doubtless be indefensible.
Terrain avoidance and "scud-runners" are the chief hazards today, I believe. I don't scud-run and don't respect those who do. Darwin's Law takes care of most of those.
Flight visibility is a two-edged sword. Rain/mist on the windshield can be very problematical. It greatly interferes with vision and there's nothing worse than being down near obstacles/trees and coming to the realization you're now lost. Ground visibility is usually better than flight-visibility horizontally, and slant-visibility is usually worse in-flight.
As for descent below MDA in/near Transition Areas.... I don't do that and I don't encourage it. It's my understanding that unless the pilot has the runway environment in sight he is not authorized to descend below MDA or continue past a MAP except in the conduct of the missed approach. Some may ask, "Why does the IAP conduct a flight into Class G at all?" I have to admit I am surprised at that myself, but I believe it may be acknowledgement that a pilot may continue in less-than-special-VFR conditions to the landing if the pilot has the runway environment. (It's that realization that should make a VFR pilot think twice before operating in low viz at airports served by instrument approaches... running into another aircraft on approach in low viz can ruin your day. If you do intend to depart such an airport in such conditions, consider contacting FSS/ATC to determine if any traffic is inbound on approach.)
Happy Holidays.
George