The International Cessna^® 170 Association

marathonrunner wrote:I did not remove any posts...don't even know how to

Soo...you think you're the only Joel around? ???

Guess I assumed I was. It is not that common a name Merry Christmas

I've recently rec'd calls from two different members each of whom complained their carburetors have "goo" or "gelatin" in them.

From: http://www.boatus.com/news/e10_0706.htm
"There is also anecdotal evidence that the mixing of MBTE gas and E10 gas may be responsible for producing a gel-like substance that clogs carburetors and fuel injection passages. Boatyards in the Long Island, NY, area reported rebuilding hundreds of carburetors at the beginning of the 2005 season instead of the usual dozens. New York state phased out MTBE well ahead of much of the country."

Another member has begun to notice an increase of rust-particles in his gascolator:
"Because ethanol absorbs water, higher amounts of ethanol in fuel equate to higher amounts of water in fuel tanks. This, naturally, causes corrosion, which itself creates particulate matter that then clogs fuel filters, fuel systems, and damages engine components." http://www.nmma.org/lib/docs/nmma/gr/po ... -11-08.pdf

Airplanes are a lot like boats. They both suffer when ethanol/autogas is used.

Boy, I sure have been lucky to have used alcohol laced fuel for these last twenty years or so without any but excellent results.
Maybe California uses better stuff like George Dickel or Jack Daniels. If Texas laces their fuel with the same quality of alcohol as they drink down there, I can readily understand why their aviation investment tends to go to hell.
The strange part of this hassle about the use of mogas and its detramental effect on aircraft and engines is that the rabib naysayers on mogas have really never PERSONALLY had any experience using it. They "damn well know enough not to use it".

gahorn wrote: http://www.nmma.org/lib/docs/nmma/gr/po ... -11-08.pdf and http://www.boatus.com/news/e10_0706.htm

George, I read through both articles. Some additional tidbits of info but it seems to have brought up more questions than answers. Then I saw at the bottom of the articles " " "Last updated July 2008" " ' ' And the boating article was published in 2006'! ? ? ?

MFWIW is that some of this info is post dated because a huge amount of tinkering with the current additives has happened since '08.

The point I was trying to make ...(especially to YOU, Ol' Gar...considering the ruined carburetor you found on your 170 having let it sit with autogas in it)...(and by the way, bluEldr...Ol' Gar is in LOOeasyANA...not TEXAS and his carb was full of "goo/gel" and has to be rebuilt/replaced)....
...
...ethanol is added to the mogas at the tank-farm by the truck-drivers. This is because the oil companies don't want their TANK FARMS' TANKS screwed up with the stuff! So the driver adds it as he loads his truck.
Not all localities required ethanol to be added to mogas at the same calendar date. Some locales still offered MTBE fuels up until THIS year...so it's possible that anyone having MTBE mogas in their tanks....who "freshen it up" with ethanol-laced mogas...can find themselves in the same predicament as our Cajun friends neighbors.

bluEldr...I also know of some 90-year-old chain-smokers. That doesn't make smoking a good idea.

When it comes to operating airplanes on mogas, I guess I'm just really lucky. If I had suspected how lucky I was gonna be, I'd have been buying lottery tickets and flying a Grumman Mallard or a PC-12.

gahorn wrote:...and by the way, bluEldr...Ol' Gar is in LOOeasyANA...not TEXAS...

But not by much! I'm sure Texas' influence reaches more than a mile or two beyond its borders.

I've probably said this before but I'll say it again. I'd use MOGAS without ethanol in a heart beat. I'd probably even try MOGAS with 5% or less ethanol if I could get it. And I don't doubt that in some very dry climates MOGAS with 5% or less ethanol used regularly and not stored might work OK. But not here in humid PA.

In PA we can't get MOGAS with anything less than 10% ethanol. Some places still say they can get it but few and far in between and no one any where near me has it. When ethanol was first thrust upon us our area was one of the first because we live in an are where oxygenated gas required by the EPA and ethanol is the only oxygenator left for gas. My airport is close to the edge of that zone and so I would drive out of my way to get ethanol free gas or at least when I tested it. (That one time any way)

But if I told you I never had ethanol in the gas in my plane I'd be lying to you and myself. What I started to see was rust and a gel like goo that came out of my wing fuel drains. My fuel drains would seize in a month from rust. I took the goo to be water, fuel and rust. After the second time replacing the then one month old fuel drains I'd had enough and let the crap drain clear out of the tank for my lawn mower and stopped using MOGAS. It wasn't worth it. I didn't want that crap to get into the rest of the fuel system and never did see it at the gasolator. When I stopped using MOGAS my fuel drains stopped seizing and the goo and rust disappeared.

Believe me if my partner and I could use MOGAS we would. Between he and I, we might put BL to shame when it comes to thrifty and cheap gas (fuel of any type really) is high on our list.

I suppose there are still a few older automobiles on the road that have steel gas tanks and how many times
do they get "Sumped"? Too bad they're not equipped with a gascolator. Think of the trouble it would save them. One of these days their carburetors will fill up with that "Gel" stuff, or something equally bad, and they'll all come to a stop.

blueldr wrote:I suppose there are still a few older automobiles on the road that have steel gas tanks and how many times
do they get "Sumped"? Too bad they're not equipped with a gascolator. Think of the trouble it would save them. One of these days their carburetors will fill up with that "Gel" stuff, or something equally bad, and they'll all come to a stop.

How 'bout you pitch-in and help my son-in-law repair all the damage caused to his '72 Mustang tank, pump, and carburetor? (That carb-rebuild cost him only $480 because his buddy owned the rebuild business. I told him he should have the privilege of buying a rebuilt Marvel-Schebler MA3 as they're only $1400 this month.)

Go ahead. Use mogas. Think of how much money you'll save. (and at so little-risk, too!)

George is that drop of jelly like substance on the side of this Fuel Strainer Assembly Glass Bowl from using "Mo-gas"?

johneeb wrote:

George is that drop of jelly like substance on the side of this Fuel Strainer Assembly Glass Bowl from using "Mo-gas"?

I acquired that gascolator-glass in a trade. That is not a drop of jelly. That is an optical inclusion in the glass. (Possibly caused by someone's previous use of mogas.)

To me this whole discussion is a chicken or the egg level of debate. The EAA who sponsors the auto fuel STC had a test airplane that they flew for an extended period of time. During specified intervals they dismantled the engine and found no difference between auto and 100LL. One of my mentors who flys a PA12 on pipeline patrol for the last 35 years has only used auto gas. He also has documented TBO times of over 3000 hours on his engines. This guy is an icon in the flying world here in Montana. I personally have 600 hours of auto fuel use in the last 4 years saving about 6300 dollars or more. When it is time for TBO I will be ready with all the savings I have enjoyed (plus the convenience). If I am so lucky to make 3000 hours I will gladly hand over the check for a zero time engine. Mind you, mister pipeline flys almost everday which most of us are hard pressed to match. His airplane sits in an open T hangar subject to the elements. Maybe the key is to fly long and fly often. Also hear in Montana no alcohol auto fuel is easy to find but probably not for long. If it was not for the price of auto fuel I am not sure I could afford to fly. Steve

I can't say much for mogas in airplanes as I run 100LL. I can attest to the issues caused by ethanol mogas in my VWs (aircooled flat 4). In my daily driver, which is a 1967 VW bus, I have no fuel related issues. My 68 dune buggy, however, goes though fuel lines faster. They rot from the inside out. I think it's because I don't drive it nearly as often as the bus. The fuel sits longer and has a bigger opportunity to do damage. I have clear fuel filters on all my old vws and I've noticed that the fuel in these filters changes color if the vehicle sits for a period of more than two days. I think it may be oxidation of the ethanol combined with residue from the steel gas tank. The fuel goes from a clear golden hue to a rusty color in a pretty short period of time. This makes me believe that mogas is safer for you plane if you fly it A LOT (almost daily). Based on my personal experience with my aircooled VW's, I won't be running mogas in my plane any time soon.