The International Cessna^® 170 Association

Larry Holtz wrote:The topic is about landing a '48. The thread has drifted to flaps. The flaps on my '48 only come into use with three point landings on short grass strips. they are useless on the standard paved stip. '48 and B model flaps are apples and oranges.

Larry

As ineffective as the flaps are on the '48, I was still taught to use them when I did my initial training on a nice long runway at New Bedford.

Larry Holtz wrote:The topic is about landing a '48. The thread has drifted to flaps. The flaps on my '48 only come into use with three point landings on short grass strips. they are useless on the standard paved stip. '48 and B model flaps are apples and oranges.

Larry

I believe that is a personal/generalization. Flaps on 170 and 170A airplanes add lift/drag and reduce landing distances. (True, they are not as effective as the B-model, but within the category of 170/170A models the behavior and techniques are the same for landing (although recommended take off flap useage is different.)

The 170 Owner's Manual, Operating Details section states: "The flaps supply some added lift and considerable drag, the resulting action steepens the glide of the airplane enabling the pilot to bring the airplane in over an obstruction and land shorter than could be done without flaps."
Also: "For unusually short field take offs the application of full flaps will be of assistance applied just before the airplane is ready to leave the ground. The flaps should not be retracted until an altitude 100 feet ABOVE the highest OBSTACLE has been obtained.' (CAPS are added for emphasis by myself.)

For the comparative differences between 170/170A and 170B performance:

170 TO distance = 1820 (factory technique)
170A TO distance=1820 (factry technique)
170B TO distance=1625 (20-degree flaps, factory technique)

170 Land dist = 1755 (full flaps)
170A Land dis= 1755 (full flaps)
170B Land dis= 1145 (full flaps)

IFNI KNEADED EENY WON TU TECH ME WHEEL LANNINS I WUD WANT THIS FELLER

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sV1CzvZ ... re=related

Almost everything about landing any 170 has been covered very well by Doug, George and Voor. It has been many moons since I got to "play" with my 170 but when I first became owned by '93D, I wanted to do those pretty wheelies. My first instruction in a tail wheel wasn't even scary cause it was in a BC12D and I could have jogged faster than we touched down. Wheelies were brought in after a couple of hours of pitch, roll and yaw indoctrination. One session of a half hour of dutch rolls made me realize how the rudder worked and taught my feet to become almost as important as eyes and hands. After I got my private and got into 170s, the instructor I wanted to teach me advanced landings, owned and flew a C140. I would watch him do the "one" wheel landings. He would approach at just a little above stall, touch one main, add a little power, then lift up about two feet then touch down on the other one. It was fun to watch and when I asked him to teach me to do that in the 170 he jumped at the chance. It took both of us three or four sessions before he got comfortable in the 170 and I got the "eye" and as Doug said, the "muscle memory" to finally feel like I was on the threshold of meeting that challenge.

"Playing" with the 170 was the best teacher of many types of techniques for me. I had a friend with a J3 and we would spend lots of hours trying to out do on short field landings and takeoffs. Of course the Cub could get airborn in less runway distance, but I could land much shorter by using all flaps and almost dragging the tail wheel in the grass before the mains settled on. Knowing your plane and it's likes and dislikes is probably the most important key to being able to make consistently good landings, whether wheel or 3 point.

And I concur with both Doug and Voor. Just adjust your technique to the conditions even with a DC3 or a short, two winged stump jumper! This video link shows a fellow who has spent some time in his DC3 and I suspect could 3 point it in anytime he chose!

I've got very little time in a Diesel 3 and a bit in Twin Beech's... but it is my opinion that the reason wheel landings are preferred by most multiengine-conventional-gear pilots is due to the approach speeds most commonly used are intended to provide the shortest period of time exposed to speeds less than Vyse/Vmc. A 3-point requires that speed be reduced further out on approach...requiring a commitment to the runway earlier in the approach because time/distance in which a go-around can be conducted due to anticipation of the engine-loss, is reduced........otherwise, if speed is kept up closer-in to the thresh-hold, longer floats result, which consume runway....

Except for the engine-loss/go-around consideration there is no big aerodynamic reason a 3-point cannot be conducted in a multi. You guys with mucho-more time in those types correct me if I'm wrong. bluEldr? Russ?

gahorn wrote:Except for the engine-loss/go-around consideration there is no big aerodynamic reason a 3-point cannot be conducted in a multi. You guys with mucho-more time in those types correct me if I'm wrong. bluEldr? Russ?

I've never tried it, but every DC-3 guy I've talked to says the Gooney just doesn't like 3-points. Even Dan Gryder (the guy flying in the video) doesn't 3-point his bird. From my understanding, it is just something about the plane in particular rather than a matter of being large. I've heard that B-17s will 3-point quite nicely.

flyguy wrote:IFNI KNEADED EENY WON TU TECH ME WHEEL LANNINS I WUD WANT THIS FELLER

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sV1CzvZ ... re=related

Love that video - that is actually the first DC-3 I flew - great airplane and Dan is one of the best instructors I've flown with.

Swifts can be 3-pointed, but Swift pilots very seldom do it -- I've never tried. They say that when you flare to the 3-point attitude, the gear wells have markedly increased drag, and the airplane drops to the runway very quickly and hard if you're any distance above it. With the oleo struts, they do lovely wheelies.

flyguy wrote:IFNI KNEADED EENY WON TU TECH ME WHEEL LANNINS I WUD WANT THIS FELLER

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sV1CzvZ ... re=related ...

Great video, Gary! The left aileron and right rudder required to hold that attitude is very evident. I occasionally get to practice one-wheel-at-a-time landings around here, but never that steep!

flyguy wrote:IFNI KNEADED EENY WON TU TECH ME WHEEL LANNINS I WUD WANT THIS FELLER

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sV1CzvZ ... re=related

Dan's hangar is right next door to mine. Maybe I'll get him to teach me that trick in his DC-3 one day.

I've never landed the DC-3 three point, the CAF only wants us to do wheel landings. We do land on one wheel though, every time there is a good crosswind.

George is correct about the speeds, Vmc is 84k and to do a proper 3-point would require slowing the plane to around 65k which would put it at risk in a go-around situation.

Rudder control gets kind of crappy on a Dizzy Three if you slow down to a three point speed.

Another good point.

hilltop170 wrote:I've never landed the DC-3 three point, the CAF does only wants us to do wheel landings. We do land on one wheel though, every time there is a good crosswind.

George is correct about the speeds, Vmc is 84k and to do a proper 3-point would require slowing the plane to around 65k which would put it at risk in a go-around situation.

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If you look very closely, you can see me out in the garden just to the right of that white-spot (which is my hangar)...to the lower-left of my runway-intersections, looking back at you Richard! (When I heard those rumbling-radials I looked up and wondered if you were aboard, and if you'd consider a low-pass!)

You know I would have done a low pass George, especially if I knew you were home. I had just done 5 low passes down to 200'agl at the Brownsville Air Fiesta, but it was not my leg, the captain had that one. Next time, hold onto your hat!

How did I miss this discussion BTW, I seem to remember 71 kts is Vmc and 84 kts is V1/V2. It's basically flown like a big light twin, since it's not a Transport category airplane.

It's been about ten years since I've flown a DC-3, but I have just under 1,000 hours in them and never once saw anyone attempt a three-point landing. If you misjudged it and dropped it in you could break off the tail wheel strut, which did happen to a guy over at Opa-Locka some years before. Another reason I was never tempted - the DC-3 has terrible stall characteristics. Once the break occurs it will drop a wing violently, if the ball is even the slightest bit out. No thanks! Russ Farris