The International Cessna^® 170 Association

To all that responded to my initial inquiry, thanks. I'm learning a lot already. I hope to start the search in earnest in February (need to settle some pesky financial stuff first), so I really appreciate getting so much guidance in advance.

Are there any 'rules of thumb' about engine time? As an example, I saw what appeared to be a great 'B' in TAP last week. The only thing that raised a red flag in my mind was the engine. Only 809 SMOH, but the OH was done in 1985. I know every airplane is different, so there probably is no answer to this one.

When I do get serious about a particular airplane, and it happens to be half a country from home, what is the best way to find a mechanic for a good, thorough pre-purchase inspection?

In one response, Eric asked where I am located. I live just south of Nashville, TN. I have been renting planes at Smyrna, TN, (MQY), and will probably base my plane there when I find my "new mistress". Hangars are in short supply around here, so I am already on several waiting lists.

Thanks again for indulging me and my rookie questions!!

John

809 SMOH in 1985 averages out to 44 hrs a year which is more than a lot of aircraft get. If the aircraft was flown regularly it will probably be fine. If it flew 800 in the first 15 years and 9 in the last year look out. Inactivity can do bad things to aircraft.

John,
I just bought my Ragwing A little over a month ago, my buddy and I did the prepurchase inspections ourselves. My buddy spends more time in ga although both of us work for the airlines. Any aircraft technician with a background in ga should be able to perform a prepurchase inspection; the things you check for are the same as on other light single engine aircraft.

Where the 170 differs is the age and the conventional gear. On a prepurchase it is not feasible to take apart the whole airplane to inspect we did the usual, decowl, open wing and tail panel, crawl down the tail, and check compression. We also checked gear boxes for we saw oversized rivets on the belly skin and door posts and wing carry through spars. The engine had about 825 hrs but was flown regularly, had one recent cylinder and some rework on the others, nothing unusual for an O300. The most important things besides a straight sound airplane is the paperwork. Remember my ragwing was manufactured in June of 48, My IA friend spent the whole time while we inspected the a/c to look over the paperwork, logs were all there, receipts for all purchases, 337's and stc's seemed all there but unless you have the faa 337 list for the a/c your going to buy it is tough to be 100 percent sure on paperwork.
When I thought this was the plane for me I sent to the faa a request for all the info they had on file for the registration number, I also used the aopa services. It all looked good so I bought the a/c. Now I am a month into the annual (My buddy and I can only work a few days a week on it)
This were you may find the 55 year old airplanes true colors, being mechanics we admittedly nitpicked on some things but some things were a must such as substandard wiring under the panel, house insulation under the sidewall panels which cause corrosion, garden hose for vacuum lines, worn hinges and rod ends, questionable control cables, worn out exhaust system, 10 layers of paint on the prop, worn air box and the such, which some of the items we saw on the prepurchase.
Now that all we are waiting is on the exhaust, we ordered a new system due to our old system was inspected and found unserviceable. But the oh by the ways, we found that there were several things never documented, we would of found on the prepurchase had we had a week to go over the six log books and 2 big 3 ring binders an two folders of paperwork but you got to chose when to fight your battles. All in all for a 55 year old airplane this was to be expected.
So don’t forget when you buy a airplane allow in the budget enough funds for a extensive annual, because you don’t know who has performed the previous inspections and work and beware of the "annual with purchase" I would rather offer a lower price in lie of the annual, would you take the used car salesmen's word on a car that he said " trust me" "there is nothing wrong with this car" " we completely go over every car we sell" No offense to any used car salesmen, but there are some aircraft techs that I wouldn’t let touch my car let alone a airplane. Which leads me to my last point, use a technician that you know or has been recommended buy someone you know, I myself enlisted my friend because he works in the ga field, I can tear apart and rebuild a 777 but trip over my shoe's on a piper cub cause it's been fifteen years since I worked on one.
Oh and test fly the airplane, I found a out of rig conditionand a erratic altimeter, because I did this gave me better barganing fodder.
Let me know if this answered some of your questions and ask question's, theres a lot of experiance in these forums.
Vic

Vic --
Thanks for the response. I, too am an airline type, but not a mechanic, hence my anxiety. This will be the first airplane I've bought, so I'm trying to get as much advice before the serious searching as possible. I am willing to pay a bit more to (hopefully) get an airplane that will not need much work. As your story illustrates, you just never know. I hope, too to be able to network through the club when I find a prospect. All the gotchas of buying an airplane are a bit overwhelming, but still fun!!
Thanks again for sharing your experiences.

John

John
When you find the plane you want to buy, don't do a pre-buy. Have an annual done on the plane at the shop of your choice agree to pay for the annual and either let the seller pay for anything other than normal services or come off the price for the amount of the repairs. If he will not agree to this find another plane. My .02 worth. BTW Do you know Charlie Niles.

John: Ditto on kloz's comments.

Here's a consideration for you: Vic and his buddy are mechanics and look at what happened to them. Being mechanics, they were willing to accept more risk than the average non-mechanic or mechanically-challenged would be willing to accept.

If you look very much into these forums (or anywhere else you find my nutty opinions) you'll see that I've long been a proponent of ONLY using an official, full-blown annual inspection before buying an airplane. Vic is correct: don't accept an annual provided by the seller. It's contrary to his interests to "find" anything wrong with his airplane.
Use only a mechanic that understands you want a full-blown annual that you expect him to sign off when it's finished. Make certain the mechanic you choose has no previous experience with that particular airframe. If possible use an established shop that has deep pockets and is well known in the area. Do NOT accept any offer to perform a "pre-buy" inspection because there is no legal definition or standard to perform such by. Only an annual inpsection performed in accordance with FAA accepted standards has any legal status should you later find unairworthy items or illegal repairs on the airplane you own, and only a reputable shop/mechanic will value their reputation sufficiently to remedy any oversight they've made.
Remember: you only want to pay for the inspection,...not repairs. Let the seller pay for the repairs with the shop agreeing to warranty the repairs to you (or second choice, ...deduct the price of the repairs ), then close the deal, make the shop sign off the annual and fly it away.
That's the only way you will know that the airplane 1) meets it's type certificate and/or STC's etc., and 2) is airworthy.
If you don't get an annual performed as part of your pre-purchase activities then you will deserve anything you get stuck with.
How to find the shop to do the annual? Local recommendations and/or owners of similar aircraft and type clubs like this one. There are 170 owners/members in every state of the union. Join the association before you start looking and avail yourself of member services and assistance.
Good luck is nice but good research and help is even better.

George --
That sounds like very good advice. I must admit, I've not heard of doing an annual in lieu of a pre-purchase, is it a common practice? If not, would it offend a seller? Are there basic 'fill in the blank' sales contracts available to cover conditions to satisfy/protect both me and a potential seller? This may sound paranoid, but could a seller allow me to pay for a new annual, then decide not to sell?

Sorry, kloz, I don't know Charlie Niles.

Thanks again for the information.

John

John, ...first you and the seller should sign a letter of intent to buy/sell predicated upon the aircraft passing it's annual inspection and being as represented. In that letter the seller should represent the aircraft as being airworthy, and you should be allowed to decline to complete the purchase if it's not unless the seller corrects the discrepancies, if any, or at your option you may pay a reduced price to make those repairs.
The annual inspection determines that condition. You will pay the inspector ONLY for the inspection portion. The seller then must either correct any unairworthiness items at his expense, or you have the choice of declining to purchase and have your earnest money deposit returned to you. (That deposit can be any amount you two decide upon but I recommend no more than 10% of the agreed sales price. That money can be held by an escrow agent such as an aircraft title-company, a lawyer acting as escrow agent or anyone else you two agree upon.)
Why would a seller not want to go thru with the sale just because you've had the airplane inspected? There's nothing been fixed for him. There's also no benefit for him because you're not going to cause the inspector to sign off the inspection until the deal is ready for closing. (And don't forget that if the annual has discrepancies that aren't satisfactorily repaired, the inspector is req'd by regulation to make such a logbook entry that the airplane is found UN-airworthy and a list of discrepancies must be developed. THAT is not something a seller will want in his logbooks for the future.) And the letter of intent will establish a basis to sue him for damages if he caused you to pay for an inspection for a deal he backed out of. Any small claims court can handle that issue very inexpensively for you ...and most decidedly very expensive for him. (In Texas, as with most other states, triple damages and attorney's fees are awarded in business-fraud cases.)
The letter of intent can contain anything you two agree upon. It can even contain the agreement that if for any reason the aircraft is not as represented that the seller must refund your cost of inspection or he must correct that condition at his expense. (I suggest you not make the letter too burdensome. Cover the basics, be clear in plain language, and get the title company's feedback on it....that's what they're paid for.)
This exact scenario was just played out this week for a friend I'm advising. He's buying a brand "S" airplane.
The shops in Houston charge between 250-450 for a worthless "pre-buy" inspection and 700-1200 for an annual for a Stinson. But a reputable shop only a 30 minute flight out of town refuses to perform any "pre-buy" inspection but charges $400 for the annual inspection only (no repairs.) The seller agreed to deliver the airplane to that shop. When the inspection was complete, the seller, my friend and I all met at that shop to hear the inspector's report. (The airplane is basically sound with some minor cosmetic issues, and about $200 of required repairs.) The seller paid for the repairs, my friend paid $375 for the annual (fewer applicable AD's than first expected by the IA) and my friend got a ride in the thing on it's way back to it's home base in Houston area, where it went back into the hangar to await the sales closing on Friday.
The aircraft title company will now receive my friend's final payment, forward my friend the bill of sale,and will fwd the seller's bank the sales proceeds. They are charging $195 for their services which in this case the buyer is paying. (Although the letter of intent could provide it be shared or paid for by whomever agrees to do so.)
Next Saturday I'll fly it home to my friend and he and his wife will begin flying lessons in it. (It's the only Stinson I've ever seen that had factory dual brakes.)

I just bought my 54 170B this summer and I would highly recommend joining APOA and using their services. They provided me with everything I needed from the Earnest money agreement, escrow services, title search, 337 search, to verifying and sending the new title to the FAA. I think it cost in the neighborhood of $300, but you will need to check.

I did only a pre-purchase inspection on my plane but if I had it to do over I would do an annual. Not that I have had any problems but I should have been more careful in retrospect. I thought about doing an annual but it would have delayed the sale because the mechanic I found couldnt get to it for a month. Also I had a hard time finding a mechanic becasue the plane was in Philly and I live in Alaska. I did fly down to Philly to test fly the airplane, and inspect her. I spent some time talking with the mechanic and was very impressed with what I saw and heard.

I arranged for a pre-buy at a later date and had the previous owner fly it over to the mechanic. All turned out good and I bought it.

I had the first full annual done in Oct and my AI was very impressed with the plane. big sigh of relief, thank you lord.

Im not exactly wealthy and I dont know I could have financially taken a big hit if I would of had problems. It would have been very tough telling my wife I just bought this plane and now its not flyable and it will cost us a pile of money to fix it. Anyway the risk just wasnt worth it and I promise not to do it again.

I will ditto George's recommendations regarding NOT getting a "pre purchase" inspection and GETTING a full blown annual inspection. Once upon a time as I was finishing up my private training, two of my friends and I found a 1964 C-182 @ our local airport for sale. It was a one owner, full IFR plane and belonged to a well-to-do grain elevator owner who used the plane to travel from South Texas up into Kansas dealing with his business. The FBO told us he had maintained the plane since new & that the owner wasn't one to spend money on things like battery's or cosmetic care, but did have regular service work done. The engine had been overhauled 700 hrs prior to our purchasing the plane as a result of a prop strike. We 3 struggled to come up with our shares of the purchase price ($14,500 in 1983--boy don't I wish I had that again!) so we chose to have an AI from another airport come over and do some pre purchase checking. (Bad decision) Basically the plane passed compression check, etc. The only thing he mentioned was it appeared some of the cylinder exhaust studs were rusty and would likely need to be replaced at annual. This was in November & the annual was due in March. We made the purchase & went off fat, dumb & happy, or so we thought. At the March annual all heck broke loose-----it turned out the prior owner was allowing his son-in-law, who worked for him, to fly the plane on most of the last 500 hrs or so and he (the former owner, after we told him of the problems) said he had repeatedly warned the son-in-law against flying at altitude & then pulling the throttle back and blazing down several thousand feet to the airport. The result was that 3 or 4 of the cylinders had cracks from drawning in cold air in the rapid, no power descents. There was an exhaust leak that had chrystalized one tube on the engine mount also. While a new set of cylinders (or repair of same) plus repair of the engine mount would probably have surficed, we chose to go ahead with a full blown overhaul. $14,000 or so later we had a nice engine! Fortunately when we advised the former owner of the situation, out of his kindness & being a Texas Gentleman (he had no legal obligation) he wrote us a check for $3500 as his contribution to the cause.

Point to all this rambling is to say that a few hundred dollars spent on a good annual by an disinterested AI will, at the very least, give you the knowledge of what you are buying and maybe a warm, fuzzy feeling + it may save you thousands of $$$.

Good luck from one who wasn't very smart in the beginning.

This is exactly the kind of info I was hoping to get when I joined!!! I joined AOPA at the same time, and plan to use their title search, document filing, and now their escrow service, too. I will, without a doubt, insist on a full annual instead of just a pre-buy.

Thank you very much!!!!

John

why spend all that money on a title search when you can get a CD Rom on the airplaqne from the FUZZ ,with all that information, for a lousy $5.00.

Because the CD is a dated item and not necessarily up to date. Additionally the title search company will be on the hook for their work product.
There is a caveat on title searches: Just because the FAA doesn't have a lien listed against an airplane doesn't mean no one out there hasn't got a claim against the aircraft. It's important in the bill of sale to have the seller warrant the title to be free of all encubrances and liens and to agree that he/she will do all that is necessary to perfect the sale including clearing of any title disputes at seller's expense. (The FAA "Bill of Sale" is only a recording instrument for FAA purposes pursuant to registration. It does not address such issues, so be prepared to provide such as an attachment to the FAA Bill of Sale should that document be utilized.)