The International Cessna^® 170 Association

What a fun time I have had going down to Dothan and getting checked out in my first C-170 and then flying it back to Northern VA via Memphis praying that the wind would remain fairly calm at all fuel stops My first taildragger and I left Dothan with only 4.2 hours behind the yoke

I have some observations that I would like to present and listen to the feedback, if any. Oil consumption seemed quite high. Don't have the total time for the trip, but covering slightly more than 900 NM, I burned (or blew out) four quarts of oil. At every stop after shutdown, oil was dripping out of the breather pipe. Perhaps an M-20 air/oil separater will help here

Fuel always fed from the right wing tank first, leading to a left wing heavy condition. Yoke was always right of center and I finally just put the fuel valve on the left tank to force this one to feed first and this seemed to help the left wing heavy problem.

Fuel apparently siphoning out of the right wing fuel tank cap. I really filled the tank to the brim. Can filling the wing tanks on a 170 to the brim lead to fuel siphoning overboard

Aircraft has an Apollo 604 loran, which is quite old but appears functional. Does anyone have a manual for one of these old boxes? I fiddled with it throughout the trip, but could not get the unit to take any information regarding my route.

Aircraft has Madras droop tips. The tailwheel guru in Alabama (an old L-19 pilot) that checked me out said that the airplane would be much easier to land if the original wing tips were put back on. I did have a devil of a time...and still do....putting this airplane on the ground. Seems to float till the cows come home...and this just makes me vulnerable to the wind. I always try for a three point landing, but end up doing a wheel landing touching before I want to and bouncing and you know where we go from here Yeeeehaaaa! Reading some other posts, I have concluded that the manual recommended approach speed of 70 mph is WAY to fast...especially with the droop tips. The instructor had me stay at a max flap setting of 30 degrees, so that I would be in a better position to go around...as opposed to trying to salvage a three point turned bounced wheel landing with ground loop scenario.

I am ready to take the droop tips off if it will improve the landing characteristics of my plane...but want to hear from some more experienced C-170 pilots before I do. Just from an appearance standpoint, I would like to have the original wing tips back on.

Any pointers and suggestions to make my C-170 ownership more satisfying would be appreciated.

Hi! And welcome to the club.
I have Madras wingtips on my '52. I almost always use 40º flaps under 25 knots off the nose. It lands easily in wheelie or 3 point. On normal approach, I fly 75 MPH (1700 RPM) on downwind, 20º before turning base, 30º before turning final, once lined up and sort final, 40º and slow down to 65 MPH when I know I can make the field, I reduce power to 1500 RPM until I get over the threshold, then cut the power and keep her off the deck till she settles smoothly. I find that the trick to a smooth landing is to keep her flying in the flare, just keep nudging the nose up without adding power (I am not talking about high X-winds with gusts here) until it gently touches down. Full back pressure and keept it there.
X-Wind, short, over obstacle, etc. is much different but touch down is lower than 45 MPH.
I find the Madras cuts down on horizontal visibility and get picked up in turbulence, faster than standard tips or Horner style. But, by the time you reach 40 MPH on the ground and you pop all 40º of flaps, you'll lift like an elevator!! JD

John Pertaining to your oil consuption problem you might try running the oil level between 6 and 7 quarts. My engine which is in good condition with a recent overhaul likes to blow out the top quart so I never put it in. Bill K.

Thanks for the information. I can't find anything in the STC paperwork for the Madras wingtips that tells me what they are supposed to do for me. All I see are reduced maneuvering and Vne speeds. You are right on the limited horizontal visibility. Looking out the side window I always see the big droop hanging down. If the Madras tips are making the 170 more vulnerable to turbulence, then indeed they will be coming off, as the family will not like being tossed around any more than necessary. I like the report on the vortex generators...maybe something to play with later. Who wants a pair of Madras Droop Tips???

As for the oil consumption, I never went over 6 quarts. I had heard that the O-300 would not be happy with eight and that most folks ran six quarts. I waited until it got down to 4 quarts and then added 2. Did not seem to use nearly as much in pattern work since the engine was not under constant pressure. I think the M-20 air/oil separater will be in my future...or else a 4 quart reserve oil tank!

Hey George, I see you put in a revue of 1T7 (Kestrel Airpark). The family and I will be coming to SAT the first part of August. Planning to overnight at T94 (Twin Oaks) and then go up to 1T7 for the cheap fuel. I see why you use avgas as it is so cheap there and autogas is so hard to find in the country of Texas

wa4jr wrote:What a fun time I have had going down to Dothan and getting checked out in my first C-170 and then flying it back to Northern VA via Memphis praying that the wind would remain fairly calm at all fuel stops My first taildragger and I left Dothan with only 4.2 hours behind the yoke

I have some observations that I would like to present and listen to the feedback, if any. Oil consumption seemed quite high. Don't have the total time for the trip, but covering slightly more than 900 NM, I burned (or blew out) four quarts of oil. At every stop after shutdown, oil was dripping out of the breather pipe. Perhaps an M-20 air/oil separater will help here

Fuel always fed from the right wing tank first, leading to a left wing heavy condition. Yoke was always right of center and I finally just put the fuel valve on the left tank to force this one to feed first and this seemed to help the left wing heavy problem.

Fuel apparently siphoning out of the right wing fuel tank cap. I really filled the tank to the brim. Can filling the wing tanks on a 170 to the brim lead to fuel siphoning overboard

Aircraft has an Apollo 604 loran, which is quite old but appears functional. Does anyone have a manual for one of these old boxes? I fiddled with it throughout the trip, but could not get the unit to take any information regarding my route.

Aircraft has Madras droop tips. The tailwheel guru in Alabama (an old L-19 pilot) that checked me out said that the airplane would be much easier to land if the original wing tips were put back on. I did have a devil of a time...and still do....putting this airplane on the ground. Seems to float till the cows come home...and this just makes me vulnerable to the wind. I always try for a three point landing, but end up doing a wheel landing touching before I want to and bouncing and you know where we go from here Yeeeehaaaa! Reading some other posts, I have concluded that the manual recommended approach speed of 70 mph is WAY to fast...especially with the droop tips. The instructor had me stay at a max flap setting of 30 degrees, so that I would be in a better position to go around...as opposed to trying to salvage a three point turned bounced wheel landing with ground loop scenario.

I am ready to take the droop tips off if it will improve the landing characteristics of my plane...but want to hear from some more experienced C-170 pilots before I do. Just from an appearance standpoint, I would like to have the original wing tips back on.

Any pointers and suggestions to make my C-170 ownership more satisfying would be appreciated.

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Most of these airplanes feed slightly faster from the right tank. This is a common characteristic of all single-Cessnas, and may be further exacerbated by our right tank caps being vented (due to the AD note.) This vented cap also sometimes vents fuel overboard when filled to the top, as you've noted.
Excessive oil, if your rings and valve guides are tight, can be caused by a leaking prop-shaft (front crank) seal. Air pressure can pressurize the crankcase and blow it out the crankcase vent line. A qualified mechanic can help you measure crankcase vent pressures with an old airspeed indicator, but in summary, the case should not have more than an inch or two of Hg pressure. Although the M-20 is liked by some, it is equally criticized by others. On this last 22-hour cross country to the convention and back, Cleo Bickford experienced good results from his "poor-mans" solution with an upwards-angled vent tube. He routed his ( another member's actually) tube upward from the crankcase to the rear baffle, before dumping the air overboard. Seemed to work just fine.
The Apollo series Lorans are no longer properly supported by UPS/Apollo. I suggest you dump it for a Northstar M-1 or King KLN-88 (which also has moving map.) Both units can be had for as little as $75, if you shop around.
I personally prefer original wingtips. They look better in my opinion, and they provide better visibility (as you've noted.) I doubt they affect landing or handling characteristics. (I've used them extensively on other Cessna's but not 170's particularly.) I consider them a gimmick.
To land the 170, I approach at 70 IAS, then over the fence allow it to slow in ground effect until the tail is slightly low. I let the wheels "roll on" then give it forward stick for a wheel landing (actually I trim it nose-heavy and relax the back pressure first, then "stick" it with a littel forward pressure), or just continue to hold back pressure until the thing 3-points if I wish to do that type landing. I don't think you'll see any difference despite the type wing-tips you have. (Another reason I think they're just a gimmick, and an ugly one at that.) (Standing by for hate-mail.) ;Þ
Be careful at 1T7. That's a challenging fuel stop, but fun if you like a challenge.

Hey George,

The KLN-88 is a loran unit? I may scan TAP for one. I see Flybuddy loran units that are advertized to slide in and replace the Apollo 604. Are these any good Flybuddy also has a GPS unit that uses the 604 tray, as long as the antenna is changed, but it is in the $700 price class. If I can't find a manual for the Apollo 604 and get the database updated, I would indeed like to find something productive to put in the panel VS. having the old 604 just sitting there taking up weight and space.

So only the right fuel cap is to be vented? I saw the AD, but I am almost certain that both my tanks have a vented cap. Would this hurt anything is both caps are indeed vented

Yes, the original wingtips along with the wheel pants are in my garage waiting to be painted a nice gloss black to match the aircraft trim color. Those Madras tips are coming off. Would hate to see what they cost originally. Those things really hurt when you walk into one as well

Have you been into Twin Oaks (T94) in San Antonio? This looks like a heck of a crack to get into. I stopped there several years ago and looked at it from ground level. All I can remember is thinking the houses are so close to the runway on the north, and then there are the hangars on the south. Never seen an airport "horned" into such a small plot of land before.

wa4jr wrote:Hey George,

The KLN-88 is a loran unit? I may scan TAP for one. I see Flybuddy loran units that are advertized to slide in and replace the Apollo 604. Are these any good Flybuddy also has a GPS unit that uses the 604 tray, as long as the antenna is changed, but it is in the $700 price class. If I can't find a manual for the Apollo 604 and get the database updated, I would indeed like to find something productive to put in the panel VS. having the old 604 just sitting there taking up weight and space.

So only the right fuel cap is to be vented? I saw the AD, but I am almost certain that both my tanks have a vented cap. Would this hurt anything is both caps are indeed vented

Yes, the original wingtips along with the wheel pants are in my garage waiting to be painted a nice gloss black to match the aircraft trim color. Those Madras tips are coming off. Would hate to see what they cost originally. Those things really hurt when you walk into one as well

Have you been into Twin Oaks (T94) in San Antonio? This looks like a heck of a crack to get into. I stopped there several years ago and looked at it from ground level. All I can remember is thinking the houses are so close to the runway on the north, and then there are the hangars on the south. Never seen an airport "horned" into such a small plot of land before.

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I'll say it again , the Apollo units are no longer supported with updates. I recommend the Northstar or KLN88 lorans. (Loran is NOT about to die. Every public utility/electric power company uses Loran for timing-hacks when switching power amongst themselves, early GPS units require their Loran receivers to be operational to remain certified for IFR use, and Loran is cheaper to maintain and more accurate at distances of more than 25nm than VOR. GPS mfr's would like you to switch over to the newer, more expensive GPS units they've all band-waggoned onto, because they've sunk a lot of money into that system, but Loran is a good, accurate (to 100 meters) system that is in wide use throughout North America, Most of Alaska/Canada, North Pacific, Russia, North Atlantic, Europe, Mediterranean, Middle-East, Japan, etc.) The KLN88 offers most of the features of GPS units at a fraction of the cost. I even have a spare unit I paid only $75 for, to use as a spare. If my unit ever dies, I'll not spend any money on repairs, I'll just slide in my spare unit, with it's updateable database, and keep on flyin'.)
If you can update your Apollo to a GPS unit for only $700 tho', that's not a bad deal. I just hate to send any msg's of approval to Apollo for their decision to orphan their Loran customers like they did. (If you do decide to stay with Loran, or use Loran as a secondary method of nav, don't waste your money on Apollo, Foster Air-Data, older King marine units, Apelco, or ANYTHING other than Northstar or King KLN88's.
The right cap only is required to meet the AD, but dual vented caps is not disqualifying.
I've not been into Twin Oaks, but I'll look at it next time I'm down there. Thanks for the tip!