Hi Everyone,
For the first time in a lot of years I find myself with some free time, so I hope I can contribute a little to this forum. I heard this audio on the supercub forum. What do you guys think?
http://www.jjgrantham.net/Allegiant758.mp3
Going the Extra Mile
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
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lowNslow
- Posts: 1535
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 4:20 pm
Re: Going the Extra Mile
I think with a emergency in progress the guy should do what he's told, keep off the frequency, and if he has a beef, call them on the phone.N4064V wrote:What do you guys think?
http://www.jjgrantham.net/Allegiant758.mp3
Karl
'53 170B N3158B SN:25400
ASW-20BL
'53 170B N3158B SN:25400
ASW-20BL
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cessna170bdriver
- Posts: 4112
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 5:13 pm
What's a little more time in the air? I understand extra fuel, extra time etc. but flying is what it is all about - enjoy the scenery! 
Plus what Miles and lowNslow said! Good post 64V.-
4-Shipp
- Posts: 434
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 11:31 pm
Ha! This recording was posted on a different forum frequented by profesional pilots of a certain 121 persuasion. Less than half way down the first page the Maule pilot's vital statistics (thank you, FAA aircraft owner database) were posted and all were encouraged to let him know personally what they thought of his airmanship. It is a tough room over there...
Apparently one of the forum members actually new the man personally from a previous life and said unfortunately that his behavior was par for the course.
Moral: Carefull what you say out there or you will get your 5 minutes of internet fame (or imfamy...Ice...Man...) and there is no hiding in anonimity anymore!
Apparently one of the forum members actually new the man personally from a previous life and said unfortunately that his behavior was par for the course.
Moral: Carefull what you say out there or you will get your 5 minutes of internet fame (or imfamy...Ice...Man...) and there is no hiding in anonimity anymore!
Bruce Shipp
former owners of N49CP, '53 C170B
former owners of N49CP, '53 C170B
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lowNslow
- Posts: 1535
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 4:20 pm
Marc, by all means talk to the controllers when you have issues - on the land line. Sometimes you'll get a "sorry- we screwed up" and sometimes you'll get a good explanation of what was going on. Even tho pilots and controllers use the same phraseology, we have very different issues to deal with.Plummit wrote:All I can say is that there have been a couple of times that I wish I had the guts to tell a controller exactly what I thought of his "instructions"!~Marc
Karl
'53 170B N3158B SN:25400
ASW-20BL
'53 170B N3158B SN:25400
ASW-20BL
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Harold Holiman
- Posts: 579
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 1:54 pm
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jrenwick
- Posts: 2045
- Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 8:34 pm
That audio was actually painful to listen to. We so seldom hear anything that in real life, it comes as quite a shock to think that anybody could be so obtuse. The only thing I've ever heard that comes anywhere close was in England, when we heard a controller say to another pilot on the frequency, "thanks for wasting my time." Yukk! I can't remember now what his issue was, but my English friend was as shocked as I was. Their controllers are generally just as professional as ours.
Best Regards,
John
Best Regards,
John
John Renwick
Minneapolis, MN
Former owner, '55 C-170B, N4401B
'42 J-3 Cub, N62088
'50 Swift GC-1B, N2431B, Oshkosh 2009 Outstanding Swift Award, 2016 Best Continuously Maintained Swift
Minneapolis, MN
Former owner, '55 C-170B, N4401B
'42 J-3 Cub, N62088
'50 Swift GC-1B, N2431B, Oshkosh 2009 Outstanding Swift Award, 2016 Best Continuously Maintained Swift
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MeeksDigital
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:52 am
what an idiot
back on the subject at hand, i think the seaplane pilot was completely out of line and should have shut up the moment that the controller acknowledged he was clear of the airspace. i'm frustrated now, even 5 minutes after listening to the recording. what a dumb@ss.
-Trevor Meeks
Filmmaker http://www.meeksdigitalstudios.com
Photographer http://www.meeksdigital.com
1950 Cessna 170A N5LP, Horton STOL, 180 Gear
Filmmaker http://www.meeksdigitalstudios.com
Photographer http://www.meeksdigital.com
1950 Cessna 170A N5LP, Horton STOL, 180 Gear
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Bruce Fenstermacher
- Posts: 10418
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am
Well I've held out long enough.
First the radio isn't the place to argue a point but I do understand the seaplane pilots frustration.
My story and there are many in the airspace around NYC that I fly.
I'm flying MedEvac with a patient on board using Life-flight as my call sign. East of North East Philaldephia Airport class D I call in as a MedEvac flight requesting transition through the north side of the class D airspace which happened to put me on a parallel course for the active runway in use.
The controller denied my request and told me to circumnavigate the airspace. This was totally unexpected. I repeated my request and made sure the controller understood I was on Life-flight status and requested directly through his airspace. He once again denied my request.
At this point I was at the edge so I had to make a 60 degree right turn and circle. Will I listened to the radio I heard the controller clear an airplane with a strange call sign (government) to depart. I immediately recalled the the First Lady Laura Bush was in town that day and surmised it was her departure that diverted my flight.
I immediately called the tower and asked who was so important on that departure that they had to put my patient at risk. He wouldn't say who it was but said he was directed to sterilize his airspace by his supervisor. I asked for and received his supervisors number and that was the end of our exchange but I'm sure he understood my message.
The next day I spoke with the tower supervisor and explained the situation. He advised me that in giving his directive he hadn't considered a MedEvac (Life-flight) flight. He said that any future directives will take them into consideration. It would have been a simple matter of holding his departing traffic for two minutes for my flight through the airspace. As it was, had he cleared me though the airspace at my altitude of 800 feet and also cleared the Jet to depart on it's parallel course there was no way in hell I could have hit them as the past through my altitude.
Don't argue over the radio but do follow up with a phone call. Remember the controller could be dealing with more than is apparent like a directive, but they and their supervisors are human and don't think of everything.
I've had a few controllers over the years tell me I had to comply with this or that and in some cases deny access to airspace. Many controllers are not pilots and as such are not responsible to know the FARs. they have their own regulations that they must follow (that I don't know) that are supposed to work with the FARs we follow.
Bottom line know the FARs and what you can legally do. What is your legal course of action is if given a directive by a controller. Comply at the moment if you can. Make a different request. Get a phone number. Argue later.
Marc if I where you and had been in VFR conditions I would have cancelled IFR and done my training that way back to my destination not allowing the controller to hold you hostage.
First the radio isn't the place to argue a point but I do understand the seaplane pilots frustration.
My story and there are many in the airspace around NYC that I fly.
I'm flying MedEvac with a patient on board using Life-flight as my call sign. East of North East Philaldephia Airport class D I call in as a MedEvac flight requesting transition through the north side of the class D airspace which happened to put me on a parallel course for the active runway in use.
The controller denied my request and told me to circumnavigate the airspace. This was totally unexpected. I repeated my request and made sure the controller understood I was on Life-flight status and requested directly through his airspace. He once again denied my request.
At this point I was at the edge so I had to make a 60 degree right turn and circle. Will I listened to the radio I heard the controller clear an airplane with a strange call sign (government) to depart. I immediately recalled the the First Lady Laura Bush was in town that day and surmised it was her departure that diverted my flight.
I immediately called the tower and asked who was so important on that departure that they had to put my patient at risk. He wouldn't say who it was but said he was directed to sterilize his airspace by his supervisor. I asked for and received his supervisors number and that was the end of our exchange but I'm sure he understood my message.
The next day I spoke with the tower supervisor and explained the situation. He advised me that in giving his directive he hadn't considered a MedEvac (Life-flight) flight. He said that any future directives will take them into consideration. It would have been a simple matter of holding his departing traffic for two minutes for my flight through the airspace. As it was, had he cleared me though the airspace at my altitude of 800 feet and also cleared the Jet to depart on it's parallel course there was no way in hell I could have hit them as the past through my altitude.
Don't argue over the radio but do follow up with a phone call. Remember the controller could be dealing with more than is apparent like a directive, but they and their supervisors are human and don't think of everything.
I've had a few controllers over the years tell me I had to comply with this or that and in some cases deny access to airspace. Many controllers are not pilots and as such are not responsible to know the FARs. they have their own regulations that they must follow (that I don't know) that are supposed to work with the FARs we follow.
Bottom line know the FARs and what you can legally do. What is your legal course of action is if given a directive by a controller. Comply at the moment if you can. Make a different request. Get a phone number. Argue later.
Marc if I where you and had been in VFR conditions I would have cancelled IFR and done my training that way back to my destination not allowing the controller to hold you hostage.
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
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Bruce Fenstermacher
- Posts: 10418
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:24 am
Just follow up thought about my last post and controllers and communication is general.
Many people are scared to use the radio and will navigate around huge chunks of airspace or never go to an airport so they don't have to talk to a controller.
First the controllers job is to safely control the airspace not restrict it. You have every right to use the airspace as anyone else within the regulations including the big iron.
I've got a lot of time navigating the airspace on the NYC helicopter routes under the class B airspace around NYC. There is very little airspace much busier.
At first it was difficult as every-time I'd make a call it would sound like a question. "Tower can I transition your airspace". Many times the tower would say "NO".
Then I learned to put my request in the form of a statement of what I needed to do or hoped to accomplish with my flight. "Tower I need to transition your airspace from point A to B at C altitude.
It's very subtle but now the controller is on board. He thinks to himself this guy knows what he's doing and won't be a problem. How can I do my job and I help this guy accomplish the task at hand. Simple "cleared as requested".
Many people are scared to use the radio and will navigate around huge chunks of airspace or never go to an airport so they don't have to talk to a controller.
First the controllers job is to safely control the airspace not restrict it. You have every right to use the airspace as anyone else within the regulations including the big iron.
I've got a lot of time navigating the airspace on the NYC helicopter routes under the class B airspace around NYC. There is very little airspace much busier.
At first it was difficult as every-time I'd make a call it would sound like a question. "Tower can I transition your airspace". Many times the tower would say "NO".
Then I learned to put my request in the form of a statement of what I needed to do or hoped to accomplish with my flight. "Tower I need to transition your airspace from point A to B at C altitude.
It's very subtle but now the controller is on board. He thinks to himself this guy knows what he's doing and won't be a problem. How can I do my job and I help this guy accomplish the task at hand. Simple "cleared as requested".
CAUTION - My forum posts may be worth what you paid for them!
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
Bruce Fenstermacher, Past President, TIC170A
Email: brucefenster at gmail.com
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lowNslow
- Posts: 1535
- Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2002 4:20 pm
Marc, welcome to the world of IFR.Plummit wrote:After a couple of minutes he came back and told me the he was sorry, but he was still waiting on my clearance strip from SoCal, and he didn't know what the hold up was. I thanked him for keeping me apprised of the situation, but we still sat there 15 minutes with the dollar-meter ticking.~Marc
Karl
'53 170B N3158B SN:25400
ASW-20BL
'53 170B N3158B SN:25400
ASW-20BL
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