New Owner Rant

[Iceman07]

I don't expect any answers, I just need to vent my frustrations...

A little history first:

Back in April, as I was prepering 5740C for the flight from KHFD to Sun-in-Fun, I did the oil change and sent a sample to the lab. A few days later, I get the dreaded call from my mechanic, metal in the oil. In May, we take take off two cylinders, and the mech recomends a Major OH. Great. So we remove the engine and send it to Penn Yan. A couple of weeks later, we get a call from Penn Yan. The Oil sump needs repair, another 7 or $800.00. OK, fine, so now the OH is up around $26,000.00. But what are my options?

Two or three weeks later, Penn Yann gets around (after already sending out the sump and a whole bunch of other parts) to magnafluxing the crank. More bad news. Apperantly, there was a prop-strike, the crank is cracked at the prop hub and the mounts are broken. Penn Yan says they will get back to me as to how much the crank will be. Two weeks later, still no news. We call Penn Yan, and they have no idea how long it's going to take. Don't have any idea how much more money.

So, I've had enough. Two weeks ago, I find a 0 time SMHO 0-300D at a good price. I talk to the guy and unless this guy is blowing smoke, this is the way I want to go.

My mechanic is not crazy about this. He thinks that I should pour more money into my 0-300A (I am begining to think he may be getting kick-backs from Penn-Yann). He said that he talked to Penn Yann and I "May be responsible for all the parts that they had already ordered and the shipping to all of thier vendors". I dunno, I kinda think that they should have done the magnaflux before they shipped everything out. My mech said that the guy at Penn Yan was "very surprised" that I didn't want to continue with the OH.

So, back to the 0-300D. I call the guy, and my mech calls him. My mech requests some paper work to be faxed so he can look over what has been done, and the history of the engine. Sure, says the guy, I'll fax it right over. That was a week and a half ago. I call him yesterday, and he said that he will fax it "today". Nope. Nothing.

So, now, here I am, the airplane has been grounded since early May. I talk to people, they assure me that they will do stuff, and then they don't.

Is this usual for GA? This is my first airplane, and if this is common, this will be my last. How do these guys stay in buisness?

[russfarris]

Nope, I'm sorry to say it's not uncommon in general aviation to get lackluster (or non-existant) service. As to staying in business, most don't.
Check out a 50 year old Flying magazine and see how many companies
are still around.

I have a working theory on this, because I've noticed it in other areas
of interest I have, namely boating, antique autos and R/C model airplanes. Since these leisure activities (you don't really NEED a boat or an airplane, do you?)
for some reason that's exactly the way they approach it, doesn't matter when or even how you get it, it's only a hobby, right? Drives me right up the wall if I let it. Exceptions do exist; my local FBO is a first rate operation that treats me like a Gulfstream owner.

You'll get better customer service out of your local grocery store than the average GA business...Russ Farris

[djbaker]

I've had two engines overhauled by Penn Yan and have nothing but good words for the work they have done for me. That said, I would think they would check all parts BEFORE they started any rebuild, especially the crank and case. Why don't you call them yourself and explain what you see happening and ask what stage the rebuild is in? They are very helpful to the customer. If your mechanic is an FBO he will get a discount off the list price from Penn Yan and that is a normal transaction. Also I have seen an FBO take the good parts off a customers engine, replace it with junk, and then sent it off for rebuild. I don't mean this happened to you, but it can happen to anybody. Also, a zero time overhauled engine may not be the best buy unless you know who did the rebuild, have a list of parts used, trust the rebuilder, and know how long it has been since rebuilt and test run. It could have been sitting in somebodys wet basement for a year!!! If you need a crank, look for one in the forums, you may find one before Penn Yan because they don't have the advantage of our members. Our planes are getting older and parts are getting harder to find even for 170 members.

[mrpibb]

Iceman, my buddy runs a maintenance shop located in the north east and specializes in us 170's , he also overhauls engines ( a TCM link mem ber).
He would be more than happy to help you make some decisions on what actions you should take, no pressure, no obligations.
I will PM you his Number

[GAHorn]

Richard,... the words that Jim Baker offer are good ones. I've also seen good parts removed and poor ones installed... but I don't know that's what's happened in this case... it is unlikely that the crank or sump was changed out... but you get the idea.
Anyway... GA is no different than any other area of business. There are charlatans out there just like in the home-remodeling businesses, auto-repair business, etc etc.
Work with reputable shops, make a plan, and communicate! Don't change your plan without communicating with your service provider.
It sounds like you are changing horses in the middle of the stream and this will shake the confidence of the vendors you've already employed and who have been performing work in your behalf (and it will run up your costs as they will rightfully expect and need to be paid for work they have already performed for you.)
I recommend you contact Penn Yann directly and visit with the shop foreman/supervisor to determine the status of your engine and obtain a commitment from them to finish the job and give you an estimate. The engine from the unknown source will likely remain....unknown and without warranty. Penn Yann is a good company who has a reputation to uphold and a warranty. Right?
Cranks are available. You can get them used or new. Get Penn Yann to price them to you, quickly, and commit to finishing the job. That's what I'd advise at this point.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Richard

At this point in the game George's advice is the advice I'd give as well. Deal with Pen Yan direct. I'd even call them on the carpet for having other work performed without having the big ticket item, the crank checked first. As I recall my advice to you in a private email was to make sure that the crank was checked before other work. You said Pen Yan themselves was leery of the availability and cost of a crank if it was necessary to replace yours.

As for vendors and maintenance shops I've heard stories like yours before. It's unfortunate. It is easy to get caught behind the eight ball and looking at a big bill to seemingly get your plane released from the grips of a situation that has left you with little alternatives but to deal with one individual or shop. This of course can be said for any industry. If I choose the wrong contractor to replace my house roof and the work doesn't get done right it's going to hurt my pocket book just like the situation you find yourself in with your airplane..

To help protect yourself you need to learn as much as you can about airplanes and your airplane in particular. I know you where doing that as we communicated several times about this situation. Unfortunately you seemed to already be caught with a single mechanic and a single engine builder in Pen Yan. I don't mean to indicate Pen Yan is a bad engine builder just that as you know, I had given you other choices, Pen Yan probably wouldn't have been my choice, but that is me in my location with my resources and my mechanic.

I feel your pain and only wish I could be of more help.

[Iceman07]

First off, thaks, guys for letting me vent.

I guess it boils down to my two biggest gripes are:

1) It takes so long to just get an answer or a response.

2) I HATE not having any options.

I would like to clarify a couple of points.

1) I don't have any issue at all paying Penn Yann for the work that they have already done. I do have a problem with paying them for parts that they have ordered BEFORE they did the magnaflux of the crank. As far as I know, they don't know about the cam yet, eithier.

2) re: The 0-300D. As I said (or rather tried to say) after talking to the guy at the engine shop (Yes, it is an engine shop, in LA), the price is right, and according to him: The engine came off of a C-172 that was crushed by a hanger door during Huricane Katrina. The engine had a factory OH before Katrina. He picked up the engine and over the last year or so he did the overhaul. He finished the OH in early June. He says that he has all of the logs and a list of whatever he replaced. That is what we are waiting for.

And by the way... he is offering a 1 year/400 hour warrenty on the engine.

Even if Penn Yan charged me $10,000 for the work they have already done, I would still come out ahead with the 0-300D. At this point, if I stay with the old engine, it's going to run me up around 32 - 35K.

If it turns out the 0-300D is as good as it sounds, I will be parting out the 0-300A.

And,yes, Bruce, this past year has been quite the learing experience. My membership in TIC170A has already paid for itself several times over.

I know that I am being impatient, but it's been two months....

[GAHorn]

The "factory" (TCM) has not overhauled O-300 engines in years, so I can't imagine what he means by "factory overhaul".
If Penn Yann had a work-order from you or your mechanic to overhaul/rebuild your engine, then it's reasonable for them to order parts for that work before checking all the rotatables such as crank/cam.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

If Penn Yann had a work-order from you or your mechanic to overhaul/rebuild your engine, then it's reasonable for them to order parts for that work before checking all the rotatables such as crank/cam.

I disagree George. Pen Yann is well aware of the increasingly difficult task to find some of these parts and cost involved. I think it bad business practice and customer service to have work done this week that could have been done the next AFTER the crank was inspected and found to be usable.

I'm sure Richard and other customers wouldn't mind the delay knowing the swing in price if a crank is needed as Richard is finding out. Unless of course the customer agrees up front to buy off on a new crank if required.

[trake]

I would never tear down an engine on the basis of one oil sample analysis. There would have to be some other symptoms FWIW Good luck

[c170b53]

I think you must be clear from the beginning or else a shop might take or will take advantage of you. The work flow should be from big to small with a good shop giving you the big picture after tear-down. Then you can decide whether to proceed or part it out to pay for the work to tear apart and inspect. Only problem is after the crank and pan are deemed unserviceable, the rest isn't worth much and you are still in need of an engine.

[ak2711c]

I don't think Penn Yann is out of line at all. For once George I am with you on this one. When an overhaul quote is given it is usually spelled out that it is based on certain parts in the motor being serivcable. When they are told to OH a motor they are going to do it the fastest way possible. Since waiting on the parts for these motors can take longer than the actual OH, it makes since that they would atleast order all manditory replacement parts first, possibly even before tear down. When I OH'd my motor it took me 3-4 months to get all of my manditory replacement parts from Continental. If they were told to disassemble the motor inspect and give a firm bid before any parts were ordered I am sure they would have been glad too. Now having said that I doubt you will be stuck buying all of the parts. I would expect to be charged for all freight involved and any restocking fees on returned parts. Good luck.
Shawn

[GAHorn]

... For once George I am with you on this one. ... Shawn

What? Only once?

Seriously, the only problem is that by micro-managing the overhaul shop's affairs, we can end up duplicating work and paying for it twice.
An acquaintance's O-470 engine was being done by a shop in GA who ordered all the mandatory items up front and issued the estimate to him. When he found out the cost, he cancelled the overhaul, and demanded his engine (now in a basket) be returned to him.
All those parts came back, freight C.O.D., with dye-penetrant evidence on most of them, and he rec'd a bill for the shop's work for tear-down, cleaning, inspection.... as well as restocking fees for the parts which were returned to TCM unused.
His local mechanic-guy who had told him he could do it cheaper, took all those parts, cleaned off the dye-penetrant and re-instpected them, and then ordered the parts he needed from his supplier. Next day his supplier called to tell him the parts were on backorder, so the mechanic called TCM direct, who informed him how lucky he was because they'd just had some parts returned from a shop in GA who didn't need them.....otherwise he would have had a long wait for backorders.
Yep. The customer paid for cleaning/inspecting twice, freight three times, and restocking once ...on parts he ultimately had to purchase anyway.
Quit micromanaging and let the shop do their job. My 2 cents.

[djbaker]

Having worked with Penn Yan, I know they spell out exactly what parts have to be servicable in their quote. The owner is responsible if the parts are not able to be returned to service. I assumed that every quote by any overhauler would include the same.

[Iceman07]

So a little update for ya'll:

Penn Yan still has the engine, they have the new crank, and have started to put the bottom end together.

I called them this morning, and appreantly, there are some parts on back-order from Continintal, and they have no idea whatsover when they might be done.

Three months into the OH, and they still don't have the foggiest idea when it will be done.

I guess this is the first 0-300A in history to have a complete OH.