The International Cessna^® 170 Association

Friends,
Having been a lurker on this forum for sometime now, I took the plunge and joined the Association. I'm interested in eventually buying a 170 of my own, but an A or B because my darling wife prefers an all metal airplane (no offense to the ragwing owners, I've flown many of them, but she doesn't like them, and if Mamma don't like it....) My background is civilian and military, from J-3 through F-16 and 767, ATP, CFI, currently flying for a major airline. I'm renting a Citabria locally to add to my tailwheel time, which is a little sparse (I do have the endorsement, a little J-3, Citabria/Decthalon, PA-18 and C-140 time.) My question is for the group in general, not to cast aspersions on any particular model, but to gather opinions: knowing the differences between the A and B model, and being interested in an airplane with an Avcon or similar (180/CS) conversion, which would you prefer and why? I ask only because in various advertising, I've seen a number of A model thusly converted and wonder if they might be a good buy? Before you barrage me with for-sales, I'm probably a year or so at least before I'll be in a position to buy. Thanks in advance for your responses.
Jeff

Are you the Jeff Hinkle that was at HMN flying AT-38s in the ,91-94 time frame?

Jeff

This is not a new subject here as you might imagine.

As with auto manufacturers Cessna incorporated changes in the airplane over its run which by most are seen as improvements. The first and the one most people know about are the difference in the flaps between the A and B model. They are totally different flap types and act totally different. The A model flaps aren't very effective. The B model flaps are very effective. That doesn't in itself make the B model better, it makes it different in the way you fly it to achieve the same effect. For normal flying pilot technique has more to do with aircraft performance than the flap differences. Now when pushing the envelope it always best to have all the tools at your disposal that you can have and it is hard to argue in this case that the B model flaps aren't better.

I will say that the flaps are the single reason B models bring a higher price tag.

Along with the flaps came a balanced elevator on the B model. The biggest difference I've found between the balanced and unbalanced elevator is that trimming is more important to eliminate control pressure with the unbalanced elevator.


But there are other improvements that might be important to you. In the A model and '52 B models the heat system, is almost none existent. In the later years this was improved somewhat in both volume and distribution of heat. For me this is worth a bit more money.

From '53 on the cowl is a pressure cowl. This eliminated an internal pressure box making the engine compartment a bit simpler as baffling goes. But later cowls don't have the same engine access as the earlier cowls so this might be a wash. If you are looking for an aircraft with a 180 conversion and it turns out to be an A model. Pay attention to the cowl and how it is latched and the baffling done. This cowl as I said was not designed to be a pressure cowl though I know there are some out there having no trouble.

Half way through '53 Cessna changed the landing gear to a stiffer gear that some can't seem to live without. I personally don't care.

In '55 there was a change to the tail wheel steering cables to improve steering but the system adds complexity some don't think is worth the improvement. In late '55 or '56 the passenger window doesn't open which no one likes.

There are other little things of course but these in my mind are the biggest changes.

Good luck with your search.

Bruce has conversationally laid out the important differences in design... although I'd take slightly different opinion on what delineates better value.
It's not the flaps that make the B model more valuable in my opinion, but they certainly contribute their worth. In my opinion it's the commonality and availability of the parts the B models share with other Cessnas that make them the better choice, all other things being equal.*
The B model shares many airframe parts with Cessna 172's, and many empennage parts with L-19's. This makes it far easier and less expensive when it comes to replacing those parts.

For example, if you need an elevator tip assembly (which a member just contacted me about) I can get a new one to you overnight very reasonably priced. I don't think we can find a new one at all for an A model, and a used/salvage one will require some research.
The (53 and later) B model cowls use parts common to many 172's that are still supplied by Cessna. The earlier cowls are no longer available, and the orginal latches for them alone cost a first-born male child.
The cabin heat in the 53 and later B models is a real cabin heater. This is real important when it's cold. The exhaust/muffler system in the later airplanes is also much easier to support and find parts for (although the earlier systems can be converted for about $1800).

*All other things being equal: This is never actually the case. There are not two airplanes out there equal in all other things. This makes it really difficult to help someone else select an airplane without intimately knowing that person's preferences. Like Bruce, I could care less which landing gear the airplane has. But there are many who will spend thousands of dollars getting rid of their early gears and converting to anything but the gear their airplanes came with. They'll buy/install the later gear.... they'll install a gear from a 180 or 185, even tho' they don't care for the change in ground-stance the 180/185 gives the airplane. And some folks love the change. It's a personal thing.
But YOUR problem will be to decide early-on which things you absolutely do NOT want, and then compare the airplanes available on the market to get the best deal, or the airplane that will make the best project for your modification to your ideal.

The A models are great airplanes. So are the straight 170's for that matter. (The fabric wings have merits of their own.) I would not categorically decide an A model was not for me... unless I absolutely HAD to have larger flaps. (And those flaps will only give you a couple hundred feet of field-performance advantage with the original engine. If you intend to put a bigger engine in it, then that becomes virtually a moot point because the HP increase alone will make either airplane a rocket-ship. The standard airplane will already land in places you can't get it out of.... a reason that I personally feel some mods are worthless/ugly, such as Vortex Generators.)

Anyway... those are the salient points, I think. Read the differences found in the various discussion threads and the History of the Cessna 170 article at the top of this Pilot Lounge and you'll be pretty well informed. And get an ANNUAL inspection for the pre-buy decision.

And WELCOME to TIC170A!

Also the A model has no dihedral in the wings while the B model does. Some say it makes for a more stable flight platform.

Incidently, the Vortex generators may not look to cool to some.....they do make the airplane much more enjoyable to fly at slow speeds. I have found, as far as I can ascertain, that it does lower the stall speed around 4-5 miles mph and does not affect the cruise speed at all. Doesn't sound like much but it sure gets in and out better at the slower speeds. The controlability of the airplane at these slow speeds makes it a pure pleasure to fly. The generators are not only on the leading edge of the wings but under the horizontal stabilizer just in front of the elevator as well. Very effective elevator control right thru stall. Now, I will not say that the 170 needs these generators to be a great airplane...it, in my opinion, just makes it a little better one.

Living in Colo and wanting your wife to enjoy flying, would pretty much tell me what to look for. Having front, rear, & defrost heat vents, with more than ample heat is a must for me. The rest is just a bonus! If the passenger window don't open, drop back 1 yr..

N2782C wrote:Also the A model has no dihedral in the wings while the B model does. Some say it makes for a more stable flight platform.

I didn't mention the dihedral difference because I don't think anyone prefers the dihedral of the B model over no dihedral that the A is set up with. I frequently fly a true A model as well as my aircraft which is essentially a B and can not tell whether I have dihedral or not. Balanced elevator, big flaps you can tell.

Thanks for all the good info! Heaters are something I never would have thought about, I've always dressed warm and not worried about it, but the wife would appreciate a warm airplane. Good points on the flaps differences, hadn't thought about the bigger engine in an A reducing some of the performance differences. Parts too, an important consideration. Yes, 4-shipp, that would be me from HMN in the early 90's. I've wondered the same about you after seeing your username on the forum some. I believe by the time I find my airplane this membership will pay for itself and then some.
Jeff

JeffHinkle wrote:..... Yes, 4-shipp, that would be me from HMN in the early 90's. I've wondered the same about you after seeing your username on the forum some. I believe by the time I find my airplane this membership will pay for itself and then some.
Jeff

Jeff, we ALL wonder about Shipp from time to time!

I have a '53 model (serial 25713). It has the later cabin heater. I can't tell you how much better that heater is, especially appreciated by my wife Jamie, because the heater in the later models directs the heat to BOTH rudder-pedal areas and BOTH sides of the rear seating area thru side-wall floor vents.
When we fly we guys get used to it, but the ladies are usually surprised to find their feet are cold at altitude, even in summer. The ventilation system of the '53 and later models were major subjects in the sales literature of the day, for good reason.

In 1987 I flew for Miller Beer (Dallas, Denver, Corpus) and spent lots of nights in your area. I recall driving thru Golden on the way to the ski slopes. (Hey. Why sit in a DEN hotel for 3 days when you can be in a ski-resort hotel?... expense reports don't care!)
Anyway, I will always think of Golden as the place where I'd intended to take a pic and send to Dave Letterman. There was a particular place on the way thru town where one could stand and take a roadside photo of a highway dept./roadway sign that had an arrow pointing to the left... and the text of the sign said "Point of Interest". It actually intended to direct the motorist down another street.
But by stepping back about 10 feet and viewing the sign... it appeared to point directly at a business in the background.... an Adult Bookstore and Video Arcade!!

I have an O360/CS avcon conversion and I recommend it especially for high/hot ops. You get a real improvement on takeoff and climb performance. You can cruise a little faster, but that's not really what it's for. I also recommend getting one
with extra fuel tankage. I only burn about 9gph at 115K but it really gives you flexiblity to have the extra 18gals or more.
Lately I've been able to pick and choose where I fill up to save some money on gas because of differences of 75 cents/gal or more. Some people say the O360 vibrates more but I find little difference and I've found the engines to be trouble free and last to TBO as long as you don't let them sit. This is my 5th airplane with a 180 hp lyc and I've yet to have a problem with one.
charlie

Jeff-
I have a stock engine A model and I would not trade it for a B model. I just happen to like the straight wing and old style instrument panel. Even with the small flaps it will still land shorter than it will take off. If you were going to stick with a stock engine I would have suggested buying the best particular airplane you can find regardless of whether it was an A or a B because the big flaps won't help that much with the stock engine. I had the old ineffective one-outlet heater that only heats the pilot's left foot in my A model replaced with a C-180 4-outlet header-style heater with two firewall outlets and two front doorpost outlets similar to the later B model heater. It was done while the plane was down for restoration and was done while the engine and all components on the firewall were removed. Not an easy task but very do-able if the plane is already having major work done.

If you know you are going to have an engine with increased horsepower, whether its an IO-360 Continental, O-360 Lyc, or 220 PZL/Franklin, I would recommend a B model only. Besides the other positive factors mentioned above by others, the airplane can make use of the full potential of the big flaps with the bigger engines, IMHO. Plus, the heater improvement in the later B models is VERY attractive.

Good luck finding your perfect plane, don't get in a hurry to buy one, wait for "the one".

Hey Jeff, good to hear from you again and welcome aboard. We have had our "53 B for almost 7 years and it has been great except for the fact that we out grew it as a family truckster too soon. Our two boys weight 80 lbs each when we bought the plane, and I figured we had at least 3 years if not more before we maxed out the weight with all four of us. Unfortunately, that only lasted about 18 months! We did take a few trips in the early spring and the heat to the rear of the cabin is a must for folks to ride back there for extended periods.

I currently fly out of 1800 feet of grass here at the house and have had no problems performance-wise if I keep things light (two adults, a few bags and less than full gas or one person and full tanks). Performance deteriorates quickly with and increase in density altitude so take a good look at what you will use it for most of the time and how long your runway will be. You will be surprised at what a stock airplane will do under some extreme conditions with a little planning and keeping the weight down.

I don't know if anyone had mentioned it, but search these forums for info on converting a stock plane to a larger motor and you will soon see that it is often more feasible $$$-wise to purchase one with the conversion already completed.

Drop me a PM at fill me in on where you are and what you have been up to the last 15 years.

Bruce

hilltop170 wrote:Jeff- because the big flaps won't help that much with the stock engine.

bla bla bla bla

Good luck finding your perfect plane, don't get in a hurry to buy one, wait for "the one".

WAL PULLIE YER WAY OFF BASE HERE BUD. I GOTS THEM BARN DOARS UNNER MA WINGS AN YEW CAN BETCHER CABIN DOUN THER ON THU PENNYINSHULA THAT THEYS LOTS MORE EFFECT THAN THEM TEENIE LIL "DOANT NO THERE THERE" EXUSES FER FLAPS ON A A . .

AR Dave wrote:Living in Colo and wanting your wife to enjoy flying, would pretty much tell me what to look for. Having front, rear heat vents, with more than ample heat is a must - - If the passenger window don't open, drop back 1 yr..

N9149A wrote:This is not a new subject here as you might imagine. I will say that the flaps are the single reason B models bring a higher price tag. But there are other improvements that might be important to you. In the A model and '52 B models the heat system, is almost none existent. In the later years this was improved somewhat in both volume and distribution of heat. For me this is worth a bit more money.

YEH -- LOOK FOR ONE THAT HAS THE LATER MODEL HEATER PARTS INSTALLED. SUM CLEVELAND WHEELS AND BRAKES IS A NO BRAINER.

JEFFIE BOY THERE IS A '52 OUT THERE SOMEWHERE WITH YOUR NAME ON IT. STOCK OR OTHERWISE THE 'EARLIER MODELS HAVE A FEATURE THAT WENT AWAY AFTER '52 AND THAT IS THE GREAT FORWARD VISIBILITY ON THE GROUND AND EVEN GREATER IN CRUISE.

AN FINALLY IF YER A GLUTTON FER PUNISHMENT BUT WANT TO HAVE ONE OF THE PRETTIEST BIRDS ON THE RAMP - GO FOR A POLISHED ONE

Polished ‘A’s look the best buy the way

flyguy wrote:... JEFFIE BOY THERE IS A '52 OUT THERE SOMEWHERE WITH YOUR NAME ON IT. STOCK OR OTHERWISE THE 'EARLIER MODELS HAVE A FEATURE THAT WENT AWAY AFTER '52 AND THAT IS THE GREAT FORWARD VISIBILITY ON THE GROUND AND EVEN GREATER IN CRUISE. ...:

Ol' Gar sometimes dranks too much hooch and loses his bearin's and says silly things. There is no noticeable loss of forward vision on later B models.