The International Cessna^® 170 Association

Hello

I had an interesting experience the other day and wanted to toss out a question to the group. I went out flying in the morning with relatively light winds but when I returned to my home airport the tower was reporting winds at 210 (mag) 20G25kts.

I am a fairly low time 170 pilot (~40hr in my 170B) and these winds were the strongest that I have experienced. The winds favoured Rwy 20.

My question is what flaps settings (if any) would most of you have used with these winds? I decided to only use 10 deg and the landing was a bit hairy (but not unsafe). Would some of you have used full flaps in this instance? I look forward to your insights.

thanks

Kevin Shaw

Kevin,

I had the same situation yesterday coming back from Nantucket. Winds were light in the morning, but coming home early afternoon, things were different! I swooped by my house on the lake and saw the water had white caps from one end to the other. I got back to the airport (KTAN) and everyone was using 12, a 90 deg crosswind with the sock straight out. But we also have a short, dirt strip (4/22) and the wind was blowing straight down 22. This dirt strip has been neglected by airport management, ruts, rocks, but that's a whole nother story...
Regardless, 10 degrees downwind, second notch turning base, and third snap on final. A little power to hold me over the trees, and greased it. (wheel landing) Had good control all the way. Retracted the barn doors after touch down and taxied to the hanger.

I've done it both ways. Flap and no flap. I find without the flaps, I'm flying down the runway, dipping my wing, cross controlling it. Always flying it 'til it slows down. Flaps and a little power give you good control.
BUT... that's only my opinion. Everybody seems to have their own style and preferences. I recommend doing what you're most comfortable with.

And needless to say, if things get ugly, power up and go around!

Unless I am really heavy (back seat occupied) I usually only use 30-deg flaps for landing. In gusty winds, I still prefer flaps and carry power, as I find their drag helps to stabilize the approach. In very strong cross-winds I reduce flaps as much as possible, preferring zero flaps. (B-model flaps tend to blank the elevator on the downwind side, and reduce rudder effectiveness, in my opinion.)

Hard to say what I might have done but if I wasn't just goofing off and just wanted to land with no frills (I like frills) I probably would have used 30 degrees of flap and keeped the speed up a pinch till I was ready to touch down.

You had the right idea reducing flaps.

Yet another advantage of the A model. I learned to fly in my 170A and was taught by my instructor (an old 170B pilot) to use two notches of flaps regardless. In his opinion it makes no difference when flying an A model. I have since learned to use the additional notches.

...at least you guys have flaps! Seems ragwing flaps are useless except for walking into...

Not too long after I bought 81V I ran out of aileron during a crosswind landing. Asked the former owner about it and he said that sometimes happens.

Anyone else have this happen with the ragwing model?

Sounds like it was a pretty strong xwind. You'll run out of aileron in ragwing or metal if its blowing too hard.

Ann I can not make first hand comments but have heard that aileron authority in extreme situations is a bit week on the '48.

I have found I maintain better aileron authority in a strong crosswind by useing 20 degrees or less flaps and making a wheel landing. Just pay attention to the tail as the aircraft slows.

N4281V wrote:...at least you guys have flaps! Seems ragwing flaps are useless except for walking into...

Not too long after I bought 81V I ran out of aileron during a crosswind landing. Asked the former owner about it and he said that sometimes happens.

Anyone else have this happen with the ragwing model?

Ann, the "ragwing" 170 was a development out of the Cessna 120/140. The wingspan was increased to accomodate additional fuel, but the ailerons remained the same with the result that the airplane has a slightly slower roll-rate than a 120/140. The metal wing 170s have more aileron authority.

Do not take it to mean the ragwing is an inferior airplane. It's not! It's a good airplane... it just has a different handling characteristic in roll than the metal wing airplanes. Sort of like the A-model isn't really inferior to a B-model. Like the ragwing, they just don't have any flaps.

George-
A good pilot doesn't need flaps!

That George...
For those that think those little flaps on the A model don't provide lift... take'em off, strap them to yore arms, get in the back of yore buddies pickem'up truck, and when he gets it up to about 80, stick em out in the wind at a fifty degree angle!
David

We've always laughed since the procedure for short field takeoff in the ragwing is full "flaps". And with my prop pitched as it is (super climb I call it) I don't need but maybe 600' on the big runway here in Elmira. And hilltop170 is right - you don't really need flaps! Seems I sometimes slip the 170 anyway (no restrictions since the flaps are soooo small) on final. It's certainly a different airplane than a "milk-stool" Skyhawk so you just have to have the self-assurance that you just can't do everything a 'hawk or 'wagon can do.

Proud ragwing owner...!!

I've been wondering about this too, as I nearly groundlooped twice in one day landing with 13G18 and 20 deg flaps. Hindsight tells me that I was just approaching way to slow, dropped it the last few inches, and snoozed on the rudder while that crosswind tried to weathervane me.

I'm much more comfortable 3-pointing in a crosswind, because pinning the tailwheel with full aft elevator seems much more stable than wheelie-ing. Even if you wheelie, and maintain a good track on the rollout, you have to transition through that dead zone of control authority...what then? I usually just get the tail on the ground as soon as I feel the dead zone coming on, and pin it.

Lots of guys on the Backcountry website talk about retracting flaps immediately upon touchdown, but that seems a little hairy too since you have to reach for the handle during a very directionally sensitive time.

I have thought about retracting the flaps after a three pointer as soon as possible. But, in a crosswind for the reasons stated I have hesitated trying to lower the flaps while I am struggling with directional control. However, if I try to apply brakes shortly after a three pointer with full flaps the mains skid like they might on ice - and I am not hitting the brakes hard. I take comfort in the fact that when I need to land seriously short I am generally on grass or dirt and the tires react differently.