Firearms/Ramp-checks/TSA ramp-security rules

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Watkinsnv
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Firearms/Ramp-checks/TSA ramp-security rules

Post by Watkinsnv »

Does anyone know if there is a federal law covering survival hand guns or rifles in general aviation aircraft. Seeing that they would probably be loaded, could be concealed in the aircraft or survival vest. And you may cross through a couple of states to get to your destination. I have heard that the local law enforcement where you may stop for fuel has no jurisdiction if he were to see or hear of a gun in your aircraft to hassle you. But I would like to avoid any problems or at least know where its covered by law. I asked the FAA and they all run from the question saying that they have no gun rules of any kind on their books. Now with the TSA flexing into GA what happens when I fly into a TSA controlled airport and how do you get your guns to and from the plane. You all are heavily armed when you fly right. :wink: Watkinsnv P.S. My problem is I have a NV. CCW but many a time I end up in Kalifornia at some small sierra town for breakfast after flying over the most wild and wilderness area's 8O OH MY :!:
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GAHorn
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Re: Survival hand gun or rifle Question

Post by GAHorn »

A private aircraft is a private vehicle and local laws apply same as to any other private vehicle on public thoroughfares.

Question: If all you are doing is landing for fuel, then why would anyone, including law enforcement, have any idea of what is in your airplane? The problem is not likely to develp with local law enforcement unless some other event causes the firearms to be discovered. If they are discovered, the problem may also become federal. (If it's not legal in your car, then it's probably not legal in your airplane if you land. An overflight is probably a different matter, and the outcome of any investigation will likely center on WHY the firearm was carried, and whether the type of firearm was suitable for the stated purpose of carriage.)

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, and I am not offering legal advice.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
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jrenwick
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Re: Survival hand gun or rifle Question

Post by jrenwick »

I'm not a lawyer either, but I've flown GA internationally. I've never heard of any issue for firearms other than going through airport security or crossing international borders. It only makes sense, when you land at an airport, to leave in the aircraft baggage compartment anything that wouldn't pass through airport security, no matter whether the particular airport has formal security inspections or not.

In the US, Law enforcement might have to search your aircraft if your N number is implicated in a crime, or if you've been flying in a way that would arouse suspicion -- maybe your flight path fooled them into thinking you came from across a border and you didn't have a flight plan. In a case like that, a firearm could cause you problems. If you're carrying firearms in your aircraft, a flight plan might be a really good idea, to prevent possible misunderstandings. (Other countries, I wouldn't consider carrying a firearm without very careful research to make sure it's authorized.)

FAA ramp checks are generally just concerned with documentation, unless maybe you look like you're overloaded (I've only ever heard second- or third-hand of the FAA actually asking to empty an airplane and weighing the contents; in a recent Wings seminar, an FAA guy who does ramp checks said he's only looking for valid pilot and medical certificates).

I hope this provokes a discussion of what people have actually seen in an FAA ramp check, what the occasion was, and how long ago it happened!

John
PilotMikeTX
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Re: Survival hand gun or rifle Question

Post by PilotMikeTX »

Unless you are flying in AK or know all of the laws for carrying a firearm where you intend to land (not hard to look up by the way), it's best to keep the gun unloaded and secured in the baggage. I would want to have a locking case anyway in case I got stuck somewhere. I wouldn't want to leave a gun in the plane and pulling out an uncased long gun and throwing it in your rental car might raise a few eyebrows depending on where you are. Most of the laws that I'm familiar with say something to effect of that it is permissible to carry a weapon in the vehicle so long as it is unloaded and not readily accessible by the occupants. If you have a concealed handgun permit, there are a lot of states that allow reciprocity with one another.

I know having the gun and ammunition stored separately in the back might defeat the purpose of having a survival gun if you crash and the contents of your plane don't all arrive at the same place. In that case, I'd go with "It ain't illegal unless you get caught." I would have a case available though in case you have to make an unplanned stop in a "Blue State". I ended up stuck somewhere once and had to tote my very mean looking, very black, short barreled shotgun from the car to the hotel and back to the car when I went to dinner. I figured it was only a matter of time before someone made a big deal out of it so I went to the sporting goods store after dinner and bought a soft case for a Marlin .22 that fit it. Then it looked like I was carrying a fly rod or a pool cue. What's society come to when you can't walk around in public with an entry gun hanging from your shoulder?
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W.J.Langholz
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Re: Survival hand gun or rifle Question

Post by W.J.Langholz »

[

I hope this provokes a discussion of what people have actually seen in an FAA ramp check, what the occasion was, and how long ago it happened!

John[/quote]

At the FAAST(Wings) meeting @BKX they were talking about having a RAMP CHECK DAY, Something like what DOT does with trucks, no fines no warnings, bring your plane in and go thru a ramp check under more pleasant circumstances. Learn what "not" to say etc. etc. hope they do it, I won't mind going to it :)

W.
ImageMay there always be and Angel flying with you.
Loyalty above all else except honor.
1942 Stearman 450
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GAHorn
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Re: Survival hand gun or rifle Question

Post by GAHorn »

Ramp checks: I've had two in my life. Both times, all the inspector wanted to see was my pilot certificate, my medical certificate, the aircraft registration and the aircraft airworthiness certificate, and he then asked if the aircraft mx logbooks were on-board. (They weren't and it's a good thing. As he asked the question I was horrified to realize it was the first of the month and my annual had just expired yesterday.) I will always answer "No" to that question. He was polite, curt, and it was over in two minutes.

RE: Firearms, ... carrying a firearm unloaded, disassembled, or in the trunk..... In Texas it makes absolutely no difference.
...(deleted)...
Displaying a firearm to discourage that road-raged motorist next to you to quit swerving in a threatening manner to you ....is not a good idea. If any violence erupts from your firearms-display, the courts will likely find the other guy probably has a better reason to run you off the road than you have to display the weapon. Bottom line: The only reason to pull the firearm out is to discharge it.... at someone who is displaying deadly-force capability in threatening your or another's life while you or the other have no opportunity to escape the danger. (If Mr. Rage is swerving at you from an adjacent lane and honking his horn and throwing insults and rude hand-gestures at you.... hit the brakes and let him proceed on down the road. Be certain to observe his identifying features, his car color, and get his license plate numbers and call 911 and report road-rage. Do NOT deputize yourself as a Barney Fife helper. Any discharge of a weapon by you will have consequences for any/all innocents within range of your bullet and of your opponent's reactions, and you will have liability for that.)
Lastly, in Texas, there is no prohibition from carrying a (loaded) rifle or shotgun of legal description anyplace except where concealed weapons are also prohibited. In other words, not on election day, and not in schools, courts, or beer joints.
Goofy thing: A submachine gun is not a handgun. It is not a rifle or shotgun. It does not meet those definitions and is not subject to those laws. It is a prohibited weapon. A legally-owned submachine gun (in Texas) is authorized by BATF. Federal law prescribes that the owner may carry "intrastate" that weapon. It is technically illegal for a police officer to take it from the owner without cause.... because HE would then be in possession of a prohibited weapon.
Cheap solution: A 12 ga. single-shot shotgun with it's barrel sawed off to 18-1/2" is a great car/airplane firearm. If you are not otherwise prohibited (a convicted felon) you can carry it with little fear of violating the law as long as you avoid carrying it in those prohibited places. It's cheap, and if it's stolen out of your car you haven't lost much and have no reason to fear reporting the loss. ...(deleted)... It's a SUPERIOR survival/defense weapon. Shot-shells will get you fed in a survival situation, and it'll blow a 3-inch hole in the belly of an attacker that no surgeon can fix. A 12-ga slug will kill a Kodiak bear or put venison on the table. It's legal to carry in all states and across the northern borders and is what lives beneath my rear seat on such trips.

PS- I don't think this is a "blue state/red state" issue. Texas was very blue until turdblossom started advising his party how to gerrymander voting districts.
'53 B-model N146YS SN:25713
50th Anniversary of Flight Model. Winner-Best Original 170B, 100th Anniversary of Flight Convention.
An originality nut (mostly) for the right reasons. ;)
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blueldr
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Re: Survival hand gun or rifle Question

Post by blueldr »

George,
Anyone that would shoot a Kodiak bear with a 12Ga, shotgun slug has a latent death wish. I don't question that the bear will die, but it will eat you first.
BL
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pdb
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Re: Survival hand gun or rifle Question

Post by pdb »

More than a few guys who spend time on salmon streams prefer a 12 ga pump with three loads of OO buckshot followed up by 2 slugs. Its a defense load, not a hunting load.
blueldr wrote:George,
Anyone that would shoot a Kodiak bear with a 12Ga, shotgun slug has a latent death wish. I don't question that the bear will die, but it will eat you first.
Pete Brown
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futr_alaskaflyer
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Re: Survival hand gun or rifle Question

Post by futr_alaskaflyer »

Sec 18 USC 926A. Interstate transportation of firearms.
Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver's compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.
Richard
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voorheesh
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Re: Survival hand gun or rifle Question

Post by voorheesh »

The idea of having a "courtesy ramp check" is an excellent idea and one that would be educational and reduce accidents by bringing mechanical discrepancies to the attention of pilots. There is no reason this can not be done without fear of penalty because you don't violate the reg until you either return to service after MX or fly. The reason the FAA does not do this is they do not have sufficient inspectors to cover the existing workload. The FAA Safety Team (FAASTeam) has replaced the former safety program and I would recommend that any of you who might benefit from such a program contact the FAASTeam and ask them to do it. Regarding other FAA ramp checks: an FAA inspector can "examine" an airman orany certificated product for conformity with the certification requirements. This is statutary ( 49 USC 44709). It can happen and does happen 24/7. FAA plans a percentage of these to happen after hours and they don't give notice of where or when. If such a surveillance, as it is called happens to a GA operator, the inspector can examine the aircraft and pilot documents and ascertain if it conforms. The inspector can request the maintenance logs, copy of flight review, copy of pilot currency records, etc. (at a later date if necessary) if needed to determine compliance. If you do not agree with this then you can ignore or deny their written request and see what happens next. An inspector has to be professional and can not unduly delay or interfere with the operation. If a mechanical discrepancy is noted by an airworthiness inspector, he is required to issue a condition notice which should be corrected before further flight. Another situation that could bring an airman in contact with the FAA occurs when an inspector is on a ramp doing something other than ramp checks and observes an unsafe situation or a potential violation which must be followed up on. The inspector is not a law enforcement official and an airmen should cooperate but is not required to give anything other than required info such as pilot certificate and picture ID (5th ammendment). In the example of an overweigh aircraft, I doubt that an FAA inspector could require that the contents be weighed, but they should certainly advise the pilot to check for proper loading. FAA and NTSB personnel do weigh contents after accidents where it is likely loading was a factor. Many states have aeronautical regulations enforceable by police officers and an airman could find themselves facing that type of encounter although it is rare. FAA ramp checks are really no big deal as George says. 99.9% of airmen from students through ATPs are competent and law abiding citizens. The government knows that. If you occasionally run into an FAA employee who does not treat you professionally, just realize that like any other group, it takes all kinds.
Re Guns: Someone quoted the FAA as saying there are absolutely no FARs on guns. Not exactly true. The FARs specify who may carry a gun on 135 and 121 air carrier flights.
Robert Eilers
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Re: Survival hand gun or rifle Question

Post by Robert Eilers »

"Courtesy Ramp Check"? In my entire 35+ years in law enforcement I don't recall ever participating in a "courtesy" car stop. The Federal Aviation Administration is responsible for enforcement of the FARs. The FAA is not there to help.
"You have to learn how to fall before you learn how to fly"
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jrenwick
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Re: Survival hand gun or rifle Question

Post by jrenwick »

Robert Eilers wrote:"Courtesy Ramp Check"? In my entire 35+ years in law enforcement I don't recall ever participating in a "courtesy" car stop. The Federal Aviation Administration is responsible for enforcement of the FARs. The FAA is not there to help.
The Coast Guard enforces boating regulations, and they also do courtesy inspections of boats. It's a good service: educational, and it catches a lot of safety problems. I've never met a sailor who didn't think it was a very good idea.

John
voorheesh
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Re: Survival hand gun or rifle Question

Post by voorheesh »

The FAA is not law enforcement. The FAA does have a work function for voluntary or courtesy ramp checks and also pilot flight checks. If problems are detected, the airman/owner corrects them on their own and there is no "violation" or "recrimination". These rarely happen because 1. The FAA does not have enough inspectors and 2. because most airmen airplane owners do not like subjecting themselves to scrutiny, especially from the FAA. If enough airmen want this, make your local FAA office aware, maybe they will make it happen. Somehow, I don't think you will find much enthusiasm for the idea on this site.
voorheesh
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Re: Survival hand gun or rifle Question

Post by voorheesh »

One more observation after reading Bob's post, we are not talking about the FAA approaching or stopping an airman for a courtesy inspection. This is a program where an airman can request one or maybe the FAA could set up a date where pilots could bring their airplanes in for a voluntary inspection. Ideally at their home airport so they could get a problem fixed before having to fly. In California, the CHP holds inspections like this for child car seats and in the old days I think they had a program where they would do a safety inspection on your car (voluntary) and you would get an "ok" sticker if everything was right. That's what we are talking about and the whole point is to try and "help" someone before they have an accident.
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W.J.Langholz
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Re: Survival hand gun or rifle Question

Post by W.J.Langholz »

Every year we have a DOT guy come and do a courtesy check on all of our over the road truck and trailers. It's is a prvent safty measure we also have and update on any new laws when the truck and trailer is done they put and o.k. sticker in the window. When one of our trucks gets pulled over in a spot DOT check if it has a current sticker generally it is waved thru.
I don't know how many guys here are or have been involved in "Wings" or FAAST programs or classes but it is a good thing for young and old pilots. Like anything else in this world you get out of it what you put into it.
If "FAAST" came up with a program where they would come to a local airport and do a courtesy ramp check and put a O.K. sticker in your window I would bet when you airplane was on the ramp and there were 6 others there without a sticker I wonder which airplane FAA would look at first.
Obviously the program would have to have validity. Safty Safty Safty.
I still think it's a good idea to be pro-active, if your plane and paper work are up to snuff you shouldn't have to worry.

Like always this and 50 cents will get you a cup of coffe.

W.
ImageMay there always be and Angel flying with you.
Loyalty above all else except honor.
1942 Stearman 450
1946 Super Champ 7AC
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