The International Cessna^® 170 Association

all you savy pilots

At a towered airport you can see freq. terminology used as "Clearence and Delivery" or "Approach and Depart"

What is the difference, and why are there 2 different terms?



W.

I suppose it depends on which approach plates you are looking at. On Jeppesen plates the Cleaarnce Delivery frequency, generally listed only as "Clearance", is located on the airport view plate - "Clearance " and "Delivery" are the same thing. The pilot departing IFR would contact Clearance Delivery on the listed frequency to obtain his/her IFR clearance. The Approach frequency is generally listed on the approach plate for an airport with radar services - the pilot would use the listed frequency to obtain radar services, or request an approach. The Departure frequency is the frequency the pilot would use to obtain radar services when departing from an airport.

What Robert said.

The departure frequancy can be the same as the approach frequancy.

Robert and Bruce

Would it be safe to say then that Clearence and Delivery is for IFR and Approach and Departure are for VFR? At KFSD I have heard them cancel IFR on the approach freq.?

KGRI Grand Island Ne has Clear&Del, KFSD(Sioux Falls) has App&Dept. both towered airports? I have been into both. At FSD you have to call approach then get passed to the tower, at GRI I called on the tower freq. I never got my butt chewed out so it must be o.k. I am just wondering for the next time I run into this, it's a little confussing.


W.

The Clearance Delivery frequency can (or must) be used by both VFR and IFR pilots. IFR pilots use Clearance Delivery to obtain their IFR Clearance. VFR pilots, generally those operating out of airports within Class C airspace, use Clearance Delivery to obtain their Class C authorization, squawk codes, VFR departure instructions, etc.

Approach and Departure are really the same thing - both are radar controllers with responsibility for a certain sector of airspace. For example; if a pilot approaches Oakland International airport from the Northwest and Northeast he/she will talk to "Approach Control" on frequency 120.9. When deaprating Oakland International to the Northwest or Northeast, IFR or VFR, the pilot will talk to "Departure Control" also on 120.9, and the controller could be the same guy you talked to on the way in to Oakland When a pilot approaches Oakland from the East or Souteast he/she will talk to "Approach Control" on 125.35, and this will be a controller different from the guy on 120.9. The two controllers may be sitting right next to each other in Sacramento, each with his/her own radar scope and sector.

Pilots may cancel IFR, while still talking to "Approach Control", for a number of reasons - they have descended below the overcast, where the airport is VFR (1,500 Overcast for example) and have the airport or runway environment in sight. By canceling early with "Approach Control", the pilot frees up the Approach Controller to clear a subsequent aircraft waiting for the approach. Generally, when arriving IFR at a Controlled airport the tower controller will cancel the IFR flight plan - thye will not cancel a VFR flight plan unless specifically requested to do so and then may refuse due to work load.

Now, if you are approaching a controlled airport that is located in Class C airspace, you may obtain your Class C authorization from either the tower or the Approach Controller. If you are arriving after a long cross country it makes sense to go through the Approach Controller, who you are probably alreadt talking to for "Traffic Advisories". However, if you are just hopping from a local airport within close proximity to the Class C airport, it is often more expedient for the both the pilot and the Approach controller for the pilot to speak directly to the tower for his Class C authorization. For example; KLVK is just 30 miles form KOAK which is Class C. The entire flight takes maybe 15 minutes. It makes little sense to bother the busy Apporahc Controller, who you would only wind up speaking to for five or ten minutes at the most. Going directly to the KOAK tower for Class C authoirzation works best for everyone. Just make sure you know where Class C begins and obtain your authorization soon enough.

You just have to check the local info for each airport. Some airports have clearance delivery and some do not. Some have approach/departure and some do not. Sometimes airports that have clearance delivery and/or approach/departure will not use them if traffic volume is low when at other times it will be required. You can usually find that out via ATIS or in your pre-flight prep.

Clearance delivery and approach/departure will be used by both VFR and IFR traffic if they are in use at the time. Whether clearance delivery and/or approach/departure is being used sometimes depends on the amount of traffic at that airport at that time. More traffic leads to more use of clearance delivery and approach/departure. Some airports use them all the time no matter what the traffic load is.

If there is clearance delivery and/or approach/departure freqs listed, call them to make your first contact. The controllers will not get upset if they are not using them at the time.

So W. what don't you understand about these straight forward procedures Robert and Richard have described.

Yes it is a can of worms. And people wonder why some folk won't talk on the radio and therefor fly places they have to use it.

Here is a few key things I've learned to get what you want. First no matter if you know what your doing or not you must sound like you do when you talk to controllers. Never let them think your sweating.

Second remember they have a job and it is to serve many customers but one of them is you.

And last I never ask to do something. I call and tell them what I need or want to do. Puts them in the mode to serve your needs not grant a wish. For example I don't call approach or tower inbound and say "Tower Cessna1234, I'm 8 miles out and would like to enter the Class D for landing". The controller thinks, "hmm- should I grant this guys wish or maybe he needs to circle a bit first". Instead I call and say "Tower Cessna1234, 8 ,miles out inbound for landing". The controller thinks, "H-mm, I better clear this guy cause he's coming anyway. I'll have this other guy circle and grant his wish after he figures out where he is".

Generally, clearance delivery is contacted from the ground, while approach and departure frequencies are contacted from the air. I think it's mostly a way for controllers to organize and prioritize the types of contacts. Often if it's not busy all these services will be performed by the same controller, but abstracting the frequencies for each function allows delegation of roles if necessary.

Think of it this way:
Departing traffic obtain their departure clearance (whether VFR or IFR) from Clearance Delivery. They then call Ground Control.
MOving GROUND traffic is handled by Ground Control.
Moving air traffic, close in to the airport (within 4 nm and below 3K"), is handled by the Control Tower on Tower Freq.
Moving air traffic that is OUTBOUND is handled by Departure control after the Control Tower is finished with them (when they pass farther than 4 nm)
Moving air traffic that is INBOUND is handeld by Approach cotnrol, who organizes the traffic into a flow-pattern the tower can handle.

Departure and Approach control are an "interface" between the Control Tower and the Air Traffic Control CENTER who has jurisdiction for traffic in the ENROUTE phase of flight. Sometimes, at smaller airports or in non-busy timeframes, Dep and Appch are combined.

VFR traffic below 2K AGL are usually not req'd to talk to Dep or Appch, but it's a good idea ...just for traffic advisory services.

Thanks for all the replies......I think

If I stay within 3 hours flight time of home base I usually have a buddy that's been into and airport that I have not. That was true in this case also at GRI. I called my buddy that flys in there 1x per week, he had told me to call the tower 20 miles out, they will tell you what to sqawk and call them back at 5 miles out. That's what I did and that what happened. this was the first time I had run into the clearence -delivery thing.

I use my most heaviest Texas accent, tell them I'm a student pilot and need there most courteous help getting on the ground.............i usually get a chuckle

Thanks again for the help

W.

W.J.Langholz wrote:... I use my most heaviest Texas accent, tell them I'm a student pilot and need there most courteous help getting on the ground.............i usually get a chuckle

W.

They probably think you are that OTHER "Dubya" who was also a part-time pilot.

One small clarification regarding class C Airspace. I do not think there is such a thing as a Class C "authorization". 91.130 requires a pilot to "establish and maintain" communications while in Class C airspace. If you establish communications and the controller does not instruct you to "remain clear of Class C airspace", you may enter Class C without any authorization. This is based on the fact that you have established communications. Importantly, you the pilot of a VFR flight are soley responsible for separation from other traffic. When you arrive or depart an airport in Class C, you will expect instructions to enhance separation and to sequence traffic and you must comply with those instructions. In Class B airspace, a clearance is required before you enter and ATC takes full responsibility for separation of all traffic. That is why VFR wx minimums in Class B are 3 miles/clear of clouds. In Class C, ATC sequences and provides traffic advisories but does not have responsibility for separation of VFR traffic unless the tower (local) controller has visual on the traffic and accepts that responsibility. Pilots must always see and avoid but it is important to understand your status when flying around busy airports. Regarding IFR, ATC has specific altitude (vertical) and mileage (horizontal) separation criteria and has sole responsibility for maintaining separation. ATC computers set off an alarm if this separation is not maintained and each case where it is lost must be investigated and explained. Cancelling IFR in airspace such as the bay area may allow the controller to "turn off" the alarm system by changing your xpdr code and may allow another IFR operation to commence a minute or two early but you reduce your protection by doing so. Airlines and 135 turbojet operators are not allowed to do that because it is thought to reduce the level of safety so it is something to consider.

voorheesh wrote:... In Class B airspace, a clearance is required before you enter and ATC takes full responsibility for separation of all traffic. That is why VFR wx minimums in Class B are 3 miles/clear of clouds. ...

Harlow, is that truly what you meant to say? It's my belief that in VFR conditions... the VFR pilot is still responsible to "see and avoid", regardless of ATC. ATC will not guarantee separation between VFR traffic.

Operation in Class B airspace requires an ATC clearance and ATC is responsible for separation of all traffic operating in Class B airspace whether IFR or VFR. Of course all pilots must use see and avoid principals whenever flying in any airspace but do not confuse see and avoid with ATC responsibilities. In Class B airspace VFR pilots will recieve an altitude and heading or other navigation clearance and the controller will keep all flights separated I/A/W IFR criteria. The Class B wx minimums are reduced to 3 miles clear of clouds to allow non instrument rated pilots to use the airspace and have horizon/visual reference and also to allow VFR pilots to comply with heading and altitude instructions without worry of the "152" rules. See 3-2-3 Class B Airspace in the AIM and note the following sentance: "An ATC clearance is required for all aircraft to operate in the area, and all aircraft that are so cleared receive separation services within the airspace. The cloud clearance requirements for VFR operations is clear of clouds". When operating in Class C, ATC will provide separation between VFR and IFR aircraft (See AIM 3-2-4) but it is not as dependable as in Class B when it involves VFR vs VFR. It is not uncommon for example for a slower VFR airplane to be overtaken in Class C when a faster VFR airplane is heading for the same airport. ATC will sequence them and will issue headings and altitudes if necessary but the separation criteria is not as strict or mandatory as it is in Class B. Visual separation (pilot sees other aircraft or tower controller sees both aircraft) can be used and ATC can use radar separation also. I do not want to suggest that Class C is more hazardous than Class B, it is just not as strict. Another important point in the AIM re Class C is that if ATC acknowledges your call sign, communications are established and you can enter. If ATC does not acknowledge your call sign, communications are not established and we should remain clear. Hope this helps.

Perhaps my point was lost in there: Anytime an aircraft is operating under VFR flight-rules, REGARDLESS of the type of airspace, the final authority and responsibility for separation from other aircraft is the "see and avoid" concept.

A mid-air which occurs within Class B airspace between aircraft in VFR wx conditions (including those only req'd to maintain "clear of clouds") will be cited as a failure to "see and avoid"...with a contributing factor of ATC failures, if any.

The exact same scenario occurs between IFR aircraft operating in VFR wx conditons. The over-riding responsibility of traffic separation lay with the PIC to "see and avoid"....regardless of any IFR clearances or separation services provided by ATC.

Remember: Controllers are human and make mistakes.