The International Cessna^® 170 Association

and trying to decide which model?? I've got plenty of tailwheel time and a bit of time in a 170B. I really like the plane but I don't know enough about the ragwing or A model to really decide which I want to search for. I like the flaps on the B model and have lots of time in straight tail 172's as well so I know how they work and what makes them so good. I've never flown a 140 or 170 with the simple flaps though. How much difference does it really make? Does the flat wing in the A really hurt or help?
I live in Indiana now but plan to make some trips back home to New Mexico and maybe out to Maine where the wifes family is so a little cross country is planned. I don't know what the fuel situation is in the ragwing but from reading what I can find it much different than the A or B. I'm an A&P and have quite a bit of experience with fabric and tin skins so the maintainence or repair of fabric or sheetmetal isn't a big worry. I've looked at a number of 120's and 140's recently and I just need the extra room that the 170 will supply. The tailwheel needs to be out back too. I'm not flying for a job so I'd rather do whats fun. I like the more antique types and for the most part they have the tailwheel in the back.
Any help on sorting the 3 models out is helpful. I've tried searching the archive and haven't had much luck finding any real pertinent info.

Thanks
Frank

Welcome Frank.

Actually there is a lot of info the trick is finding it. What model might be the number one question folks like yourself have. You'd probably ask which color is better but you haven't been around the forum enough to know there is a difference. BTW Green, like money is better.

OK here goes. B models are thought to better than the others because they have the bigger flaps. Truth is for some folks it's the improved heat distribution system found in '53 and later models that makes them better. For other folks it is the stiffer landing gear or balanced elevator. There are a few other refinements as well till '56 when they started cheapening the fleet with plastic and inoperable copilots windows. Do the flaps really matter. Not in my experience flying both an A and B model. All three models can be operated in and out to the same environment but technique will be different depending on the model your flying. Does the gear matter, again not in my experience but to be honest I only have a few landings on the stiffer gear. As for the balance elevator, if you flew only one model 170 you would know the difference between the '48/A model unbalanced elevator and the B model balanced elevator. My experience flying both is you have to spend a bit more time with the trim wheel so your not fighting the load with the unbalanced model but that's it.

For lost of folks the '48 is least desirable because it has a rag wing. That is just a deal breaker for people. True they only came with stock with 3- 12.5 gal tanks totaling 37.5 gal with 34.5 usable but that is only about 20 minutes or less flight time difference than the A or B which has 2- 21 gal tanks totaling 42 gal which 37 are usable. Same fuel burn for every model, the A and models carrying just 2.5 gal more usable fuel.BTW many '48s have a fourth tank which you want to make sure is legally installed. Lots of folk who own '48s like them because the tend to be lighter, not loaded with lots of goodies.

I was hours from buying a '48. Eventually bought a pile of parts that resembled a B model and know own an A model. Fact is they are all good and that is what we tell folks. You might decide you'd rather have metal over fabric which would move the '48 to the back of the list. If a better heater is high on your list then a '53 and later B model moves to the top of the list. But the list should include ALL the models because the most important thing is to find a nice example no matter what model it is.

Another thing to keep in mind is that lots of the so called improvements like heat and stiffer gear have been retro fitted to the '48 and A models.

Good luck in the hunt.

That answers a lot of questions. I know all the info is out there but it seems like you have to be a master archivist to figure out how to ask the search engine what you want...I appreciate the bunch putting up with the new guys and answering the same question over and over.

I'll keep lurking while looking too.

Frank

Frank, dont be bashful. There are to many retired folks on here that love to chat up the 170. Fire away. Most questions will be answered same day if not the same hour if George is around...LOL. Good luck finding your 170. Doug

Not bashful here....can't eat me over the net. At least I don't think so.
I like many others prefer the all metal but unlike some I'm not afraid of the fabric. Looking at the 120's and 140's I found so many that were convinced that metalized was so much better than fabric but I don't agree there. I think fabric is fine but it just requires a slightly different type of care. I guess my worry with the ragwing was that the fuel system might be a lot different. Finding out that the ragwing is heavier then the all metal A was a surprise too. Learning that the heater system is a lot different between the 3 models is good info and I'm sure things can be done to make up for any shortcomings. I've got a couple friends with B models who are convinced that the flaps on the B mean none of the others are worth flying but I don't see that as a deal breaker either. I've got enough time in the t-crafts, super cubs (with no flaps) and a few citabrias that I think the flaps may be nice but not the only consideration. I'm sure the ragwing or the A model will slip ok. I guess another question is the cooling box vs pressure cowl. Working on a number o homebuilts and Formula 1 racers taught me that the tight little cooling box type systems can actually be more efficient if done right. . . not sure if the early 170's are right or capable of cleanup but??? I guess the big questions are do all 3 types cruise about the same speed for the same fuel burn? Is there any difference in gross weight and useful load between them? Is there any important differences between the C145 and the O300 as far as operation or maintainence? I know about the 8 bolt flange vs the 6 bolt but I can't see that being a deal breaker either.
One last thing, I've seen pics of a few 170's that have the dorsal fin of the later A and B model. Is there some reason to add it to the earlier plane? I like the nice curve of the later tail as opposed to the 140 type fin but why would it be added to the early plane?
Thats it for this eve...

Thanks guys

Frank

Biffj wrote:Not bashful here....can't eat me over the net. At least I don't think so.
I like many others prefer the all metal but unlike some I'm not afraid of the fabric. Looking at the 120's and 140's I found so many that were convinced that metalized was so much better than fabric but I don't agree there. I think fabric is fine but it just requires a slightly different type of care. I guess my worry with the ragwing was that the fuel system might be a lot different. Finding out that the ragwing is heavier then the all metal A was a surprise too. Learning that the heater system is a lot different between the 3 models is good info and I'm sure things can be done to make up for any shortcomings. I've got a couple friends with B models who are convinced that the flaps on the B mean none of the others are worth flying but I don't see that as a deal breaker either. I've got enough time in the t-crafts, super cubs (with no flaps) and a few citabrias that I think the flaps may be nice but not the only consideration. I'm sure the ragwing or the A model will slip ok. I guess another question is the cooling box vs pressure cowl. Working on a number o homebuilts and Formula 1 racers taught me that the tight little cooling box type systems can actually be more efficient if done right. . . not sure if the early 170's are right or capable of cleanup but??? I guess the big questions are do all 3 types cruise about the same speed for the same fuel burn? Is there any difference in gross weight and useful load between them? Is there any important differences between the C145 and the O300 as far as operation or maintainence? I know about the 8 bolt flange vs the 6 bolt but I can't see that being a deal breaker either.
One last thing, I've seen pics of a few 170's that have the dorsal fin of the later A and B model. Is there some reason to add it to the earlier plane? I like the nice curve of the later tail as opposed to the 140 type fin but why would it be added to the early plane?
Thats it for this eve...

Thanks guys

Frank

Frank...I want to WELCOME you to our group! GLAD you're HERE!

I also want to make certain you've had a chance to read thru the History of the airplane, found at :
http://www.cessna170.org/forums/viewtop ... 1004#p1004

As for your questions just-posed:
1) Ragwing fuel system: The most significant concern with the ragwing fuel system is NOT the 3 little 12.5 gal tanks (or the fact that some folks have added a fourth 12.5 gal tank to the left wing to increase capacity and to make both wings symetrical).... the most significant concern is the fact that ALL ragwings REQUIRE a fuel pump (originally mechanical, engine driven) and a check-valve (to allow by-pass should the pump fail.) Lots of owners have fallen under the DELUSION those items can be done-away with...NOT SO. They MUST be installed and operational. (A and B models do not have this requirement due to routing differences in the fuel lines.)
2) Actually...not much can be done to "make up" for the shortcomings of the early cabin heaters other than to dress warmly, or spend money/effort converting the early air distribution system and still not having the increased cabin heat of a 53-or-later heater because the exhaust mufflers aren't the same heating-capacity either. (But this is not an issue unless you spend a lot of time flying around in arctic conditions.)
3) B-model flaps are really nice, and they have the added advantage of being similar to later Cessna models. But their primary advantage is during landing, and all models can already get into places they cannot get back out of, so don't let that single item be a deal-killer if you find an earlier airplane you really like.
4) B-models have a better tailwheel bracket, but earlier models can be converted, usually after they develop cracks.
5) 53 and later B-models are more accomodating for full instrument panels.
6) 53 and later B-models have pressure-cooling cowls, which are more easily repaired using more readily-available later Cessna parts. Engine baffling for earlier models are available again, however cowl parts are not as common.
7) As for the most important issues: Fuel burn, weights, speeds... they have virtually no difference in those matters. They all burn slightly less than 8 gph, cruise 104 kts/ 120 mph, and all gross 2200 lbs with about 1300 lb empty wts unless they've been loaded down over the years. (However, a few very early models had only 100 lb bag compartments, versus 120 lbs on all later models.)

So... fine the best, cleanest (no corrosion), 170 you can... and enjoy the fact that all models are fun, useful, generally-affordable and dependable little airplanes.

canav8 wrote:Frank, dont be bashful. There are to many retired folks on here that love to chat up the 170. Fire away. Most questions will be answered same day if not the same hour if George is around...LOL. Good luck finding your 170. Doug

Doug, I just checked the post count and I know 7 of the top ten currently posting members are NOT retired. How ever Frank, as Doug says don't be bashful. We do like to show off how much we think we know about this airplane, even if it's for the hundred thousandth time.

Bruce Fenstermacher wrote:

canav8 wrote:Frank, dont be bashful. There are to many retired folks on here that love to chat up the 170. Fire away. Most questions will be answered same day if not the same hour if George is around...LOL. Good luck finding your 170. Doug

Doug, I just checked the post count and I know 7 of the top ten currently posting members are NOT retired. How ever Frank, as Doug says don't be bashful. We do like to show off how much we think we know about this airplane, even if it's for the hundred thousandth time.

Sorry I assumed that since the response time was so fast that someone had to be retired, or you dont work. I know I know its just your place of employment...LOL
D

Try to avoid early airplanes that still have the old "pancake" exhaust. They're all worn out and parts are not available. A new exhaust system is kind of spendy.

Frank Just buy the best condition plane you can. Any model 170 is going to meet your mission as you describe it. In Indiana you are probably going to hangar your plane and that is important to the fabric wing. Most of the other issues are just not that important. I was looking for a B model when I found a ragwing in excellent condition and I bought it 17 years ago and have never felt a desire to upgrade as it meets my needs just fine. The B model flaps are cool but they require a little more maintinance an you can't slip with full flaps. Today you would probably have trouble finding a 48 without the fuel pump installed but if you do subtract $2000 from the price to take care of that problem. It will also cost about the same to upgrade from the pancake mufflers. The 48s and A models generally sell for a little less and can represent a good value for your dollar. Bill K

blueldr wrote:Try to avoid early airplanes that still have the old "pancake" exhaust. They're all worn out and parts are not available. A new exhaust system is kind of spendy.

A more accurate statement would be to price such an equipped aircraft accordingly. You might also want to knock a bit off for still having the smaller tailwheel bracket George mentioned. Original Goodyear brakes and wheels would also be another deduction.

These points are the major reason in my mind the '48 and the A model are usually priced less than a comparable B model with the fabric covered wings bringing the '48 models a bit lower. Funny thing is most folks price the '48 the lowest because of just the fabric, then the A models just because the B model have the bigger flaps. Most folks including some long time 170 owners don't know there are any other differences. A point that always fascinates and boggles my mind but shows that besides the differences the models are really about the same for MOST folks. It is only when you start breaking them down to the nitty gritty that the differences start to emerge.

Now I can see some differences worth checking into. I was unaware of the fuel pump on the ragwings though I'd seen some references here and there. It seems to me that one good reason for high wings is no pump...unless you've got more power than the lines will flow with gravity like the Hawk XP 180 conversions. On the other hand my Cruisemaster had a pump (and low wings) and worked fine for a long time. I know the heater issue may not be readily fixable so I figure dressing warm is the fix. The Cruisemonster had a great heater so shirtsleeves at -5 was fine. The T-craft on the other hand required Carhardts and gloves if it was below 40 outside. I'm guessing the early 170's are in between.....not a problem for me.
I hear stories about the flatwing 170's wandering due to the lack of dihedral but I imagine these stories come from those with little experience in the planes. A lot of stability comes from hanging the plane under the wing. I'm not really looking for an IFR platform in any case as I fly for fun and flying when you can't see anything isn't much fun, for me.
It looks like I won't regret whatever choice from the sounds of things so I'll keep my eyes open. I think I'd like to find a B but an A would be fine and a ragwing would work too. Main thing will come down to the individual aircraft condition and cost. I feel better for the advice from the educated crowd.
Thanks
Frank

Frank, in my opinion having lots of hours in the "flat" wing and the "bent" wing is you won't notice the difference. Perhaps you might if you could fly both of them at the same time in the same place under exactly the same conditions. And I suppose if you put a stop watch on two otherwise identical aircraft under the same conditions you may be able to measure a difference in stability.

What I know is I was able to fly both models for long periods under the right conditions with just rudder input for directional corrections. As I stated what I think you may notice between the two is the elevator. If your use to the B you will fight the A more because you won't be in the habit of trimming as much. If your use to the A you might wonder why you didn't have to adjust the trim. This is primarily in the landing phase.

But then your probably going to use a different technique to land each anyway because you have different equipment in the flaps. The A you might pull all the flaps then jam in some pedal for a slip to loose altitude. In the B you pull full flaps, cut the throttle and push the nose over. You won't gain much airspeed and you don't want to slip the B with flaps out and you shouldn't need to. The key is not to become familier with one then you won't expect anything with the other.

Bruce Fenstermacher wrote:...What I know is I was able to fly both models for long periods under the right conditions with just rudder input for directional corrections. ...

Beware, Frank! Every time Bruce gets into the right seat he tries to "pull collective" ...and that's why he needs to "get used to" each model again every time he flies!

Well it looks like I've ended up with 2 170A projects. Both are 49's and in a million pieces with no engines. I haven't sorted all the parts yet but it looks like there are enough wings and tail surfaces for 2 planes along with engine mounts but there is a seat shortage. One fuselage has groundloop damage to the left main but surprise of surprises there is a spare gearbox. The other fuse is down to basic sheetmetal and has either been repaired or just cleaned up and chromated. The bent one had an Avcon 180 conversion done at one time but the engine and mount are gone along with some other neat stuff....no instruments or radios for either. There is just one cowling. I've come across some parts I'm unsure of the ID on and will post some pics when I can. Not sure if I really want to try and put one together from the "kit" or maybe sell off the stuff and get what I was planning to....a flyer. Sometimes its nice to start from scratch and get the colors, styles and "new" on everything. Other times its better to be flying. Interesting looking through the logbooks.....one of these started out with US Justice dept registration flying for Customs in the Laredo Tx area til the mid to late 50's.
I've attached a couple pics of an unidentified bracket that looks like it might be a rudder or flap? hinge bracket???
Thats it for now.
Thanks
Frank