The International Cessna^® 170 Association

So, I went up and flew the plane I'm looking at and did some pattern work (FWIW, it's a '48 with metalized wing). I did my original tailwheel endorsement 5 years ago in a similar metalized '48 and have only accumulated about 14 hrs of tailwheel time in the past 5 years, so I'm definitely still a beginner.

What was interesting, is that when I did my orginal training, my instructor preferred wheel landings and that was about 90-95 percent of the landings we did. I got pretty good at doing them in the '48 and found that 3-points were alot more difficult.

Flash forward 5 years, and I could NOT successfully wheel land this '48 I'm currently looking at without serious bouncing. I don't think it is an issue with the airplane. It is probably more a matter of something I'm doing. The current owner favors wheel landings over 3-points due to the springy gear on the early model. Funny thing is, while the owner found it difficult to do 3 points, I could make beautiful 3-points in this plane!

I had beautiful approaches and was crossing the threshold at 70 mph. Problem happened during the flare - too much sink on touchdown. What I ended up doing was trying for a tailwheel low landing - basically holding it off in the flare to reduce the sink. What ended up happening was that I just kept easing the yoke back until we touched down in a 3-point attitude.

The guy showing the plane had a lot of tailwheel experience, but was not an instructor and could not figure out what I was doing wrong.

Any ideas?

What do ya'll prefer in the early 170s?

My plane is a '48 rag and I'm certainly no expert with a total of 40 or so hours in it. I find that wheel landings are more difficult than the three points especially on hard surfaces. I've been told it's a function of the spring gear which will launch you back in the air if your sink rate is too great. For wheel landings I come in with a little extra RPM and gently fly the plane to the runway. There's not much flaring and definitive forward pressure on the yoke (which seems counterintuitive to a dude who learned in a nosedragger) the second you feel the wheels touch in order to pin it down and keep it from bouncing.

I prefer three point landings myself because they come easier for me. What I need to do is keep practicing my wheel landing till I prefer them. I want to be the best stick I can because I want every option available to me in any situation.

I had asked a similar question a couple weeks ago, but didn't get a really solid answer so I talked to some local guys here. I had one instructor that really favored 3 points and could do them wonderfully but was a little rough on wheel landings and I had one instructor that wouldn't let me do 3 points because they aren't as practical as wheel landings.

I logged 6 hours with instructor number 2 on Tuesday and I see what he means now.

The bounce isn't from the spring so much as it is from letting the tail come down to early in the process. When the angle of attack increases, the plane wants to take off again. You then put it back down by pushing forward, which shoves the plane to the ground faster, but then that tail comes down with inertia too and increases the angle of attack, and you are back off again. Approaching your landing a little bit faster than you would in a 3 point is a part of why this happens, because you don't bleed off the airspeed there at the end when you flare. You just drive down on to the runway.

What this guy made me do over and over and over again until I got it is when the mains touch down, force the yoke forward. Force it like, all the way forward. I don't think I am comfortable enough to say I actually went to the stops, but he says you can't nose over if you don't touch the brakes, but don't quote me on that. Someone else can pipe in on that. Anyway, what that does is keep the angle of attack on the wings low so the plane doesn't want to fly again. Once the airplane is below 25mph on the ground, put that tail down.

It took a lot of comfortability factor to push the yoke forward for me. You may want to get an instructor to right seat with you.

Thats all I did, now there is no bounce!

Glenn has it right (almost).... IMO. ( I use wheel landings mostly ON pavement....3-points mostly on turf....because the pressures/beatings on the main gear are rough on the gear on rough dirt/sod runways.)
The early landing gear is more "springy" and needs to be flown onto the pavement.
First... try a few "delayed" rotations. I.E. for a few takeoffs, don't let the airplane lift off. (This lets you learn the attitude-picture.)
Here's how: Yoke full-back, taxi into position, apply power and let her begin to roll. (If necessary, prior to TO Roll look back at the elevator tips and examine yoke position to learn where neutal IS... you'll find it's about where your knuckles are abeam the doorpost.) When TO-power/directional control is established, NEUTRALIZE the yoke forward...then place slight forward pressure on the yoke, to keep it on the runway in the 2-point attitude for a while. THIS is the wheel-landing attitude and control forces you can anticipate when performing a wheel-landing.
Only after the airplane seems to strongly dis-like remaining on the ground.... ROTATE to a nose-almost-on-the-horizon, climb attitude.
Next...Try flying it down the runway WITHOUT touching down a few passes, each time getting closer and closer to the pavement...to get your peripheral vision adjusted to the picture.
Then...when you're ready... as the wheels are just inches above the pavement....slightly reduce power and as the wheels ROLL onto the pavement FIRMLY apply forward yoke to "stick it' (similar pressures as when delaying that takeoff previously) ...and let it roll-out. (The ROLL_ON technique helps avoid the "bounce" mentioned in the above post.)
As the tail loses effectiveness...BEFORE the rudder/elevators lose complete effectiveness... let the tail down and PULL that yoke back into your lap. Retract any flaps and gently apply brakes.
VOILA"!

907Pilot wrote:...The bounce isn't from the spring so much as it is from letting the tail come down to early in the process. When the angle of attack increases, the plane wants to take off again. ...!

YEP!

907Pilot wrote:...What this guy made me do over and over and over again until I got it is when the mains touch down, force the yoke forward. Force it like, all the way forward. I don't think I am comfortable enough to say I actually went to the stops, but he says you can't nose over if you don't touch the brakes, but don't quote me on that. Someone else can pipe in on that. ...!

I wouldn't go so far as to say you can't strike the prop...but it's exceedingly difficult unless you hit the brakes HARD simultaneously. Here's why it's OK to be fairly firm with fwd-yoke:
Think about the relative wind... Rolling along in the 2-point attitude the rel. wind is roughly parallel to the underside of the wing and streamlined with the horiz. stab.
But firm, fwd-yoke DECREASES AOA...and the relative wind begins to strike the AFT portion of the upper wing-surface (this is a good thing) as it destroys lift and helps you stay on the ground. It ALSO strikes the upper surface of the horiz. stab...cancelling-out much of the elevator, preventing over-nose-down attitude.

Regarding use of brakes...I commonly push fwd yoke during wheel landings...THEN retract flaps (to dump lift) and THEN simultaneously apply brakes while PULLING AFT on the yoke, thereby placing maximum weight-on-wheels for effective braking. After you've got that wheel-landing technique figured out... try it, and you'll be pleasantly surprised how quickly you can get things under control in gusty cross-winds.

The first 10 years I had my airplane, I would luck into a decent wheel landing only every once in a while; no consistency. Then I had an instructor tell me that while learning wheel landings, trim a bit more nose down than you normally would, maybe 1/4 to 1/3 turn forward. When the wheels touch you only have to relax back pressure to "pin it on", rather than push forward (a counter-intuitive move for a lot of us). After you've done that enough, you learn what's required, then you don't need to fool yourself with trim any more. (He told me this over a beer, not by demo in the airplane. It worked for me.)

One of the guys I talked to said that was a good idea too, but my concern is what if you need to make a go around?

gahorn wrote: First... try a few "delayed" rotations. I.E. for a few takeoffs, don't let the airplane lift off. (This lets you learn the attitude-picture.)
Here's how: Yoke full-back, taxi into position, apply power and let her begin to roll. (If necessary, prior to TO Roll look back at the elevator tips and examine yoke position to learn where neutal IS... you'll find it's about where your knuckles are abeam the doorpost.) When TO-power/directional control is established, NEUTRALIZE the yoke forward...then place slight forward pressure on the yoke, to keep it on the runway in the 2-point attitude for a while. THIS is the wheel-landing attitude and control forces you can anticipate when performing a wheel-landing.
Only after the airplane seems to strongly dis-like remaining on the ground.... ROTATE to a nose-almost-on-the-horizon, climb attitude.
Next...Try flying it down the runway WITHOUT touching down a few passes, each time getting closer and closer to the pavement...to get your peripheral vision adjusted to the picture.
Then...when you're ready... as the wheels are just inches above the pavement....slightly reduce power and as the wheels ROLL onto the pavement FIRMLY apply forward yoke to "stick it' (similar pressures as when delaying that takeoff previously) ...and let it roll-out. (The ROLL_ON technique helps avoid the "bounce" mentioned in the above post.)
As the tail loses effectiveness...BEFORE the rudder/elevators lose complete effectiveness... let the tail down and PULL that yoke back into your lap. Retract any flaps and gently apply brakes.
VOILA"!

George,

That is exactly how I remember being taught in the 170 - instructor started with high speed taxis until I got the hang of maintaining steady directional control up on the mains.

For some reason, I was having trouble getting that feel the other day, but then again, we didn't start off with any high speed taxis - just went straight to the landings. It may have been that I was flaring just a little too high (could have been due to flying up to see the plane in a Beech Duchess). What I found is that the bounce was enough that I could not get the yoke forward quickly enough to keep it down.

What I ended up doing was trying for a tailwheel low landing like I've done in the DC-3 (I've got about 3.5 hrs in DC-3s). Basically level off and slowly easing the yoke back, but what I ended up with was a full 3 point vs a tail-low wheelie.

I agree that flying with an instructor is the best thing, plus Avemco wants 4 hrs of dual and a CFI signoff before solo.

907 you don't use so much forward trim that you can't pull it of for a go around. Plus if you need to you'll get your hand down on the trim quick enough.

With only about 40 hours in 81D, I do wheel landings exclusively.

I trim the airplane for a neutral pressure on final and still give it a deliberate push forward on touchdown.
I was taught to "stick it onto the pavement" so it wont fly away. The springy landing gears are actually nicer to land than the stiffer ones IMO. You have a cushion if your sink is a little too much. But, putting the stick forward when the wheels touch prevents you from going back into the air anyway.

Pulling back on the yoke to control descent is a bad idea. You'll bleed airspeed and sink even faster. Keep your attitude right for your airspeed and work the throttle to control your descent.

That and I've been told that you can stop shorter with wheel landings than three pointers. I don't know that for sure but I know I can land it right on the numbers and haul on the brakes to the point that they lock up (accidentally) without going over because the elevator still has authority.

</$0.02>

I want to go practice wheel landings now. Damn weather.

bagarre wrote:your attitude right for your airspeed and work the throttle to control your descent.

While I agree that the throttle can definitely help reduce the sink, what about power off landings/simulated engine failures? Even if you regularly land the plane power on, I think you still need to have the power off landing in your bag of tricks.

With power off, what you have is what you have. You can't control descent, you can only manage it.

So, if you're sinking too fast, your only option is to lower the nose and pick up speed up. But that only works if you have some altitude to work with. And you're only lowering your nose to speed up to minimum sink. It's doesnt help if you're already there.

If you're 30 feet up and sinking so fast you're going to crack up the plane, the mistake was probably committed to a few hundred feet ago and what you have is what you have.

I usually fly a power off approach flaps up around 75mph ( a little fast I think). Short final (once I'm sure I have the field) I put all the flaps down and simply land normally. On the wheels, stick forward on touch down, get on the brakes, bring the tail down.

How do others do their power off approach?

In a B model (actually any model), I'd pull in the first and maybe even second notch of flaps before I even turned base. Then on base another notch or maybe two depending how many I pulled on downwind and how many I planned to pull total. Then I'd usually pull all remaining flaps on final unless I decided not to use all the flaps. Point is I wouldn't wait till I was on final to go from 0 flaps to full flaps, specially on a B model.

And I'm always in a position to make the field regardless of flap setting from downwind. (Unless of course, I don't care to be, which happens sometimes.)

And then of course there are those times I'm having fun and I cross the numbers at say 1000 ft agl pull the throttle for a simulated engine out. In this case I might be likely to rank all the flaps I can as I push the nose over into a spiraling 360 to the runway. Or maybe it was just a 270 or 180 turn and I'll pretend it's not my day and my blown engine also jambed my flaps up. Then I touch down on the numbers with no flaps but perhaps a full slip. It's likely I'll hit my pretend trees at the end of the 1000 ft I give myself but I figure I'll survive because I'd steer the fuselage between the trees shearing the wings to decay any remaining speed.

I like to approach a little faster on a wheel landing. I usually use 80 on final for my wheel landings and if I bounce a little too much I will usually just convert it to a three point. Trimming nose down usually helps on a wheel landing as releasing back pressure is less counter intuitive than pushing on the yoke. When I want to do a short field landing I will almost always three point with an approach speed over the threshold as low as I dare for the wind conditions. Another thing which can help on wheel landings is to bring in a few hundred rpm as you cross the threshold to give you a more gentle touchdown. Of course smooth grass is aways the best place to practice your wheel landings. Bill K

Good point Bruce, every landing is different from the previous.

I havent slipped the 170 much but I used to slip the 172 when needed.
It just seems like 40 degrees of flaps precludes the need to slip (so far).

I'm always surprised at how quickly that extra 10 degrees of flap will bleed off speed.