The International Cessna^® 170 Association

Hello All,

I am looking at a plane in Oregon to purchase and may need a local mechanic to do an annual. Can any one suggest a qualified 170 mechanic in the area?

Thanks.

The area of Oregon is a pretty big area. You might want to be more specific.

Southern Oregon. Plane is in Roseburg but willing to pay for travel.

have a talk with your mechanic before you commit to the work. Do you want a Pre buy inspection or just an annual. My first airplane purchase about 1970 the annual was done by what I thought was a competent mechanic. The next annual was done by a shop that found enough problems that the cost of the annual was more than the purchase price. I would suggest that you do not go into this casually. I am in Illinois so I won't suggest the person who does mine because of the distance. Good luck

N2645V wrote:.... Do you want a Pre buy inspection or just an annual. My first airplane purchase about 1970 the annual was done by what I thought was a competent mechanic. The next annual was done by a shop that found enough problems that the cost of the annual was more than the purchase price. I would suggest that you do not go into this casually. I am in Illinois so I won't suggest the person who does mine because of the distance. Good luck

I'm perplexed about the wording of that question... An FULL ANNUAL by a qualified, competent IA is the ONLY inspection that will inspect for airworthiness. (Hint: Do you want to buy an airplane that is NOT airworthy?)
There is NO DEFINITION of a "prebuy inspection".... it could be a tire-kicking or an oil-change.... it's only an opinion...NOT a testament of airworthiness.

The first annual done on my first bird was done by an incompetent IA years ago. Since then I got very fussy about who worked on my aircraft. Twice immediately after an annual I found problems. Once bolts that were in backwards and another time a cracked fuel line within 6 inches of the right fuel tank. Both times I had not left the mechanics facility with the bird. The cracked fuel line incident was an IA I would still recommend to any one, I just got very lucky.

I do agree that the term Pre buy inspection does not exist, but I do know of one situation where the IA that did the previous annual falsified some of the inspection and was told that he would take care of the bill for repairs or the FAA would be contacted. There is a 2 piece venturi in the carburator of some 170's others have a one piece venturi. The person signed off on a AD note concerning the 2 piece venturi. At the next annual a one piece venturi was in the carburator. What else did he not look at. That bird is based here at 1c5 and the owner is a member of this group. I hope I have all my facts right about the venturi, I did get this second hand.

When you buy a 170 with a fresh annual that implies a certain level of quality and it is not always there. Having an IA implies a certain level of knowledge, integrity, etc and that is not always there... in my opinion.

N2645V wrote:... There is a 2 piece venturi in the carburator of some 170's others have a one piece venturi. The person signed off on a AD note concerning the 2 piece venturi. At the next annual a one piece venturi was in the carburator. ...When you buy a 170 with a fresh annual that implies a certain level of quality and it is not always there. Having an IA implies a certain level of knowledge, integrity, etc and that is not always there... in my opinion.

This anecdote does not prove the inspector was dishonest. "Signing off" an AD ....might simply be the record of an IA who spent time gaining access to the component ...only to discover the AD was satisfied because a single-piece venturi was installed..... which was again confirmed at next annual. (A valid criticism of the first IA might be sloppy wording of the entry describing the AD-action.... perhaps he should have worded "no longer applies due to single-piece venturi installed" instead of "AD complied with by inspection".)

Yes,.... when employing an inspector...it's best to hire a COMPETENT and HONEST person to work on your airplane. He/She should also be TALENTED/EXPERIENCED. This is not necessarily hand-in-hand with "cheapest".... which is what so many do when looking for airplane technicians. Consulting with others with prior experience with that inspector is always a good idea....and it appears that is the intent/purpose of "janinak" in this original post.

I've recently taken a couple of my aircraft to Valters Aviation at Lake Elmo Airport, MN (21D) for annuals. The owner told me "we find stuff," and they did. Both aircraft, the Swift and the 170, are now in the best condition they've ever been in since I've owned them, as a result of those inspections. I've also observed a "pre-buy" inspection of a 170 in the same shop, and they found stuff on that airplane too. It was basically the same inspection, but $200 less cost for not doing the logbook work. If you can get a "pre-buy" inspection like that, you'll know as much about the airplane as you would after an annual inspection.

As people are saying here, whether an annual inspection means anything at all depends on who's doing the inspecting. The key thing is, they must use an inspection check-list, and really do all the inspections called for on the list. Valters does, and they'll give you the completed checklist sheet at the end of the inspection. Use of a checklist during an annual or 100-hour inspection is a requirement of FAR 43.15(c). Assuming there is a checklist, you still need a mechanic who will be thorough about it, and experienced enough to spot problems that might not be obvious. It seems to me, a "pre-buy" inspection done under those conditions should be as good as an annual, if what you want is to know everything that's wrong with an aircraft before you buy it.

John, I know you are meaning well...but that msg you just gave is exactly the wrong impression that I feel I have a constant battle to overcome.

The reason your "finding stuff" inspections cost less than a real annual is NOT because they didn't have to do paperwork. (Firstly, you have no way to compare because there is no control-group airplane to make that comparison..and secondly, it's apples vs oranges inspections.)

The reason you saved $200 was because the shop has NO LIABILITY FOR ERRORS when "pre-buy" and "finding stuff" inspections are made. Ain't no definition or legal obligation to "pre-buy/finding stuff" inspections. They also did not have to CLEAN the aircraft to properly "find stuff" in many cases. They did LESS WORK than they would have done under their own annual inspections.

And many shops are quite capable of determining airworthiness without full annuals...that's true. I'm sure we all know of airplanes we don't have to come within 50 feet to see their level of airworthiness...

But to imply that a "finding stuff" inspection (no matter how well execute) is comparable to an annual inspection (equally executed) ... is NOT and never will be.

Why? Because only the annual inspection will carry the legal obligations of the annual, certified and signed.

Furthermore...you can save the same $200 if you tell the annual inspector he doesn't have to do the oil change, lubrication schedule, clean the aircraft, or disassemble it... and he doesn't have to FIX what he discovers...only has to discover it.

I have a story that might reinforce your point, George, or maybe not. The only experience I've ever had with someone taking your advice and arranging for an independent annual inspection of a 170 he was going to purchase resulted in the mechanic declining to do the annual after he looked at the airplane. He said that because had recently had an annual (true), it didn't need another one. This first-time buyer was disappointed with his mechanic, but when he and I looked at the airplane, he was disappointed with it as well. He didn't buy it, and I've heard since that it had major issues we didn't know about.

The refusal of the buyer's mechanic to sign the aircraft off was not the main reason the sale fell through, partly because he didn't give the buyer any indication that there was anything wrong with the aircraft. The seller had represented it as a "10," which it obviously was not when we saw it, and the buyer was level-headed enough not to go home with something he wasn't completely happy with. It was an expensive lesson, because he had flown both of us a considerable distance on commercial airlines to purchase the 170 and fly it back home together.

My take on it is, you can ask a mechanic to do a "pre-buy" or an annual, but either way, it's got to be a trustworthy mechanic. In my experience that can be very dicey. There's no easy answer to this problem, only the school of hard knocks (aka years of aircraft ownership, along with lots of owner-assisted maintenance). TIC170A membership helps too, as well as many hours of carefully reading this forum!

Well, it's difficult to get to the bottom of many stories because of lack of dependable evidence. Example: Who knows why an inspector would refuse to perform an annual which was just performed previously by someone else.
Was it because the previous annual had been performed by a "buddy" and the inspector didn't want to be responsible for revealing his buddy's incompetence or dishonesty?
Or was it because the inspector being asked knew the other shop's shoddy work and felt he risked being left with a disassembled junkpile in their hangar that perhaps no one would ever reclaim or pay the bill? Or he was afraid of being drawn into a potential lawsuit as a witness to someone else's shoddy work?
Maybe he already knew what to expect to uncover in that airplane and he simply didn't want any part of it?
Perhaps the locals already knew about that airplane and simply wanted it to go away...far away....
Or was it that the inspector didn't understand the true reason for desiring a second annual to be performed?
Or was it that he already had plenty of work without taking on a potential problem-case for a customer who'd fly the thing away never to return for repeat business.?

Who knows? We'll never know.
But such stories do not invalidate he reason to perform full annual inspections on airplanes we intend to buy if we truly want to know the thing is airworthy and we want recourse if we later find ourselves cheated.

That's my point. If you don't know the mechanic, you have no idea, just a lot of questions. And if I have a mechanic I know and trust look at an airplane (you might be thinking of Del), he can advise me and I don't have any need for "recourse."

There's an ocean of difference between those two poles, and many of us find ourselves in there much of the time!

If I asked Del about a Cessna across the Mena airport from his hangar and he told me he'd gone over and looked at it and it looked pretty good..... Then I'd tell Del I'd like him to pull it over into his hangar and give it a full annual!

Because if I simply bought it and got it home and found the spar-attach-blocks looked like water-soaked wood and called Del back to complain....he'd rightfully tell me that he didn't look at those because he didn't think I wanted to spend that much on an inspection...or I'd have asked him to perform a full annual!

And he'd be right!

Buyers beware! Ask yourself: "If I wanted to know what inspetion to perform to determine if an airplane is airworthy... which inspection would that be?"

I've already told the story in these forums about the Baron a friend asked me to evaluate for him. I'll never, ever, again make that mistake of not having a top-shop perform a full annual on a potential purchase. (do a search to read the story)