advice wanted on new purchase

[nuke170]

Student pilot here with ~30hrs. My training has been interrupted for various reasons but I'm determined to push through now, (12 hours in the last months). When I first started about 4 years ago, I was taking lessons in a 150 taildragger (11 hours). That plane is gone, and the instructor is very busy with other things. My recent time has been in a 172.

I have stumbled upon what I think to be a cherry of a 1952 170 for about 45k. It has basically been rebuilt from the ground up since the current owner bought it in ~2000. New paint, upholstery, headliner, reskinned wings, IFR capable (vacuum pump), only 150hrs SMOH done in 2010 on o-300d. <3000 TT. Ground loop with damage in the 1970's. All log books complete.

Now for the real questions:

1) Should I just finish up in the 172 since it's what I'm used to?

2) Should I buy this airplane I've found assuming a good pre-buy, and finish up in it?

3) Buy it, continue to finish up in the 172 while taking a few taildragger lessons on top of it (would that mess with my training? Set me back on my 172 landings?.

Thanks in advance for your opinions

[DaveF]

I vote for option (1) or (3). Buy the airplane if you like it, but finish in the 172. Don't do anything that will add time to getting your private certificate!

Finishing up in your own airplane would add time if it increases the amount of dual instruction you need, if your current instructor isn't qualified in a 170, if you delay training while the airplane purchase happens, or if you spend training money on buying the airplane. Another reason not to finish in your own airplane is the extra insurance you'll pay for being a student pilot owner. Learning to land a 170 will only help your 172 landings, but will add time as you get comfortable in the new airplane.

You said you're determined to push through, so do it. You'll do much more fun and interesting flying as soon as you're past the checkride.

[nuke170]

Thanks for the reply.

I think you speak the truth. Keep going and don't add time, except maybe for some tailwheel time for fun. This plane is just eye-catching for a reasonable price, so I'm a little obsessed with it.

[canav8]

Nuke 170, with your experience, your success with training will excel in familiar surroundings. You should stay in the same plane till at least your solo then you can start looking at other planes. There are plenty of airplanes for sale. Dave gave you some sage advice. Doug

[juredd1]

I vote for option (2).

What do you want to fly when you are done? A tail dragger or nose dragger? If you are going to buy a plane either way you might as well be putting that money your spending on renting the 172 into your own plane if a 170 is what you want. 12 hours in the last month x's hourly rental, I bet that double covers the insurance and monthly payment if your getting a loan. Just saying if your buying at some point anyway why not now. For me if I had know I was I was going to convert to a tail dragger later I would not have bought and trained in a 152. It was hard for me to forget my tri-cycle gear training but that may not be the same for all. For me when I converted my insurance required a min of 10 hours of dual flight training so even after you receive your private license, depending on insurance you may be stuck with 10 more hours of instructor time in the tail dragger of choice even though your 11 previous hours may have you ready for a sign off in 2 hours.

I don't totally disagree with DaveF's post. If buying the 170 is going to take months to work through then that might put you behind in your training but if you can get it taken care of in a short period of time I doubt a month is going to mess you up. Finding a 170 instructor that works for your insurance is also something to check into before hand. Folks here may now as I don't, if there are legal issues with moving from a nose dragger to a tail dragger in the middle of training. I would imagine it don't but can't say for sure if it would set you back or set you back anymore than waiting and having to get the tail dragger endorsement later. If money is an issue so that buying the plane takes from your training money but if you flew 12 hours in the last month and continue at that pace then I don't think that is an issue.

Justin

[canav8]

I vote for option (2).

What do you want to fly when you are done? A tail dragger or nose dragger? If you are going to buy a plane either way you might as well be putting that money your spending on renting the 172 into your own plane if a 170 is what you want. 12 hours in the last month x's hourly rental, I bet that double covers the insurance and monthly payment if your getting a loan. Just saying if your buying at some point anyway why not now. For me if I had know I was I was going to convert to a tail dragger later I would not have bought and trained in a 152. It was hard for me to forget my tri-cycle gear training but that may not be the same for all. For me when I converted my insurance required a min of 10 hours of dual flight training so even after you receive your private license, depending on insurance you may be stuck with 10 more hours of instructor time in the tail dragger of choice even though your 11 previous hours may have you ready for a sign off in 2 hours.

I don't totally disagree with DaveF's post. If buying the 170 is going to take months to work through then that might put you behind in your training but if you can get it taken care of in a short period of time I doubt a month is going to mess you up. Finding a 170 instructor that works for your insurance is also something to check into before hand. Folks here may now as I don't, if there are legal issues with moving from a nose dragger to a tail dragger in the middle of training. I would imagine it don't but can't say for sure if it would set you back or set you back anymore than waiting and having to get the tail dragger endorsement later. If money is an issue so that buying the plane takes from your training money but if you flew 12 hours in the last month and continue at that pace then I don't think that is an issue.

Justin

Justin, and Nuke 170, the other really big problem is the examiner for the private checkride. My FSDO no longer will do a private pilot checkride in a tailwheel aircraft. There is noone that has the courage to go and do the ride. They are all qualified, Airplane Single engine Land. FAA does not want the responsibility. Sounds stupid but that is a big concern with todays FAA.

[bagarre]

If you can get your check-ride in a taildragger, I say option #2.

I got my certificate in a 172 and then bought a 170. I still needed to build a lot of tail time in the 170 with an instructor to learn how to use my feet and land in a crosswind. Why not take care of all that now and not further bad habits?

Let's face it, you can learn to fly a 172 with your feet squarely on the floor boards. I pretty much did that. Learn in the plane you intend to fly, is my opinion.

A friend of mine bought a Decathlon and got his PPL in it. It can be done.

[nuke170]

Great info guys.

I have thought about the check ride thing, and was wondering about that myself.

I'd like to own/fly a taildragger, something nostalgic and unique about them, and may, in the future, try to have a grass strip at home.

One good thing about starting in a taildragger is that I use my feet in the 172, the instructor commented on not having to correct me as he usually has to with others.

[nuke170]

....but by no means do I feel proficient in a taildragger. Insurance requires 10hrs instruction and 10 solo before carrying passengers.

[c170b53]

The 170 will be the plane that will see you flying for years. The 172 will be the path of least resistance and lower risk. Get licensed in a 172, make lots of mistakes, gain confidence,(won't take long) then go for a plane that you will keep you wanting to fly. The tail wheel thing is easy,(perfection much much harder to obtain) confidence will take a bit longer which isn't a bad thing and then keep the respect, every flight.

[ghostflyer]

If you see a "good"" 170 grab it ,as they are getting harder to obtain each day . I have been only flying 46 years and haven't met a pilot who has trained on a tail wheel and checked out that has had trouble flying one of those aircraft with the nose wheel up the front . Tail wheel training makes you appreciate how a aircraft performs. Cessna in the early days of the 172 had a system called "land a matic undercarriage . Inferring it made land ing easier even for simpletons.
So keep up with the training and fly what ever aircraft comes your way . It's just good fun

[daedaluscan]

This was me two years ago.

I could not find a tailwheel instructor where I live, so I finished my training in a 172. I did it in a year, flying twice a week and that for me was only just frequently enough. I am 53.

I then bought the 170 and had to commute to Vancouver on the ferry to get in my tailwheel time. (I had a BIG hiccup on the way but won't go into that - suffice to say do not believe everything an instructor tells you about their tailwheel experience)

I essentially had to learn to fly again, but it was well worth it and I felt comfortable in about 12 hours in my own 170.

I wish that I had been able to buy the plane and learn to fly in it from day one, but that did not work out. If you are really sure that this is the plane for you then buy it and learn in it would be my advice.

My insurance required 10 hours dual and I think 5 take offs and landings - what a joke I would have stipulated 5 hours dual and 500 take offs and landings.

My insurance also covers ANY instructor. Be extremely careful who you let in your 170 to teach you. Did I mention that you should be extremely careful who you let in your 170?

[blueldr]

Learning in a conventional (tailwheel) airplne will probably take a little more time. Transioning from a conventional airplane to a nose wheeled airplane will be quite easy.Transioning from a nose wheel airplane to a tailwheel airplane will be much more difficult. Dealers choice.

[anjordan]

I bought a 170A to get my lisence. I had a great instructor who gave lessons during the week. I on the other hand farm for a living. I only have free weekends. After 15 hours I started another planting season. KLBT has a instructor that gave lessons in his 152 that taught on weekends. 4hrs and a solo. 4 months of weekend lessons and a PPL. We moved my 170A to KLBT and in 6 more hours I had a tail wheel endorsement. I am not sure 500 landings will be enough to have the confidence I have in a 152 or 172. At well over 150 the heart rate still gets way up. Here are a few things that Help my decision on a 152. Instructors will let you bounce your plane not theirs! Gas cost you and them. It cost you almost as much to fly your plane as it does theirs. IMO bounce their plane, not yours! BTW, KLBT has 2 runways 150 ft wide,never a direct crosswind. At 55 hrs old I have learned to take the path of least resistance.

[blueldr]

The January TIC170A Fly Paper arrived today. There are a couple of C-170s advertised therein. One of them a '52 B model for $22,500 has got to be really good deal for someone wanting a C-170. Makes me sorry as hell that I've simply run out of years. At that price, you can afford to do a lot to it.

anjordan,
If you feel that aviation gas is too expensive, may I be so bold, in view of many of our members, to recommend that you acquire and use an STC permitting the use of automobile gas (mogas) in your C-170. I fully realize that there a good many members that would completely give up flying rather than use mogas.
I have been an advocate, (read cheap assed SOB), and user of mogas for well over SIXTY years and have NEVER had one moment of problem or concern while flying on it., even that unauthorized product containing alcohol. Believe me, I have saved a hell of a lot of money over all those years.