Advanced Airmanship - Clearing the Runway

[GAHorn]

Excerpt from latest FAA Safety Program email:
An aircraft exiting a runway is not clear of the runway until all parts of the aircraft have crossed the applicable holding position marking. This marking consists of four yellow lines (two solid and two dashed) extending across the width of a taxiway or runway. Unless otherwise directed by ATC, exiting the runway without delay and taxiing clear of the runway are integral parts of the landing clearance. Absent ATC instructions, the pilot is expected to clear the holding position marking associated with the landing runway even if that requires the aircraft to protrude into or cross another taxiway or ramp area. Stop the aircraft after clearing the runway if instructions have not been received from ATC. Immediately change to ground control frequency when advised by the tower.

For an illustration:
http://www.faasafety.gov/SPANS/events/2 ... Runway.pdf

[blueldr]

In a similar vein, George, how often have you heard a pilot advise
"Clear of the ACTIVE" or "Taking the ACTIVE" at an uncontrolled airport? There cannot be an "ACTIVE" runway unless it is a CONTROLLED airport, that is , a tower control to designate which runway is "ACTIVE". I find that junior flight instructors, not knowing any better, are particularly fond of using those phrases.

Some of us really, really old farts are awfully smug, aren't we.

[zero.one.victor]

There are 3 other local airports using the same unicom/CTAF freq as mine. I find it a bit annoying when the already very busy freq is further tied up by reports of "clear of the active" (none of the 4 runways have a hump or other visibility problems which would require such a call for safety's sake) or "at the cafe,taxiing for departure". Also "ten miles south, inbound for landing". Local landmark reporting pointss are a bit of a pet peeve too--"landfill", "bend in the river","island crossing", "blue water tower","chimacum school","fisherman bay". At least some of them ( like "paper mill") are visible from the air, eben if they're not shown on the sectional.
Whenever I hear that someone's "taking the active", I'm always tempted to tell them not to take it, someone'll need it later to land on. Kinda like the old "got prince albert in a can?" phone gag.......

Eric

[GAHorn]

Well, if we're gonna talk about "pet peeves" ...then one of my favorites that has come into popular useage lately is when someone comes blasting into the uncontrolled field area as a newcomer in a hurry and broadcasts they're 5-miles out and "Any traffic in the area please advise."

(Standing on soap box , speaking to such jerk-) The rule requires YOU to listen in on the frequency for other traffic in the area. The rule does NOT require other aircraft to bring YOU up to date on what's going on in the pattern. YOUR stupid broadcast merely cluttered up a frequency and shows disregard and disrespect for others who have been following established protocol and regs. YOU are a hazard to others.

And finally,...it seems that the perpetrators of this new technique is largely the new breed of regional/commuter carriers with cockpits full of fuzzy-faced boys and girls. The latest crop of student pilots now mimic them in the belief they are being "professional".

(Someone give a hand and help the old man off the box?)

[R COLLINS]

I cannot believe this thread is going in this direction. I am based at an uncontrolled airport and I report my position during all phases of air or ground operations. You know why, because the idiots in Mooney's and Bonanza's and such that have too much experience, think just because it's uncontrolled they can come straight in unannounced and land downwind or whatever direction is convenient for them. I have had to abort a landing before because of a jerk from the Dallas area came in unannouced until he was on short final for a runway that was not active at the time. He lined up to come straight in, without flying any pattern, and landed crosswind. Since he was flying a CAP plane I guess that made him somebody in his mind. Next time I will make the appropriate phone calls. Honestly who is safer, a student or low time pilot a little happy on the mike, versus someone who thinks they own the skies and comes and goes as they please? When I flew 45D home from Florida the radios were intermittent so we flew into uncontrolled airports all the way home. Four out of five asked why we came in unannouced. We sure as hell didn't land downwind. Just needed to rant a little, Randal

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

I don't mind people giving thoughtful, meaningful position reports as the situation dictates and faulting on the side of more rather than less is probably better.

What I don't like is people thinking position reports are required and there for since they didn't hear any they don't need to look for anyone.

The thing that gets me really steamed is when I'm approaching a busy airport for say a fly-in breakfast. There are airplanes in the air in the pattern and making position reports including what run way they are currently landing on. Instead of listening to the radio they make a call in the blind asking what the favored (or active) runway is. Then when they don't get an answer they tie up the busy frequency to ask several more times.

George the radio call you describe has made me think what the pilot who made it is thinking. I'd like to think he is looking and listening and not hearing anything just for that last bit of safety asking if anybody is in the pattern they may have missed.

Unfortunately all to many times the pilot is probably saying. OK everybody between me and the airport, here I come, lookout. Now aren't you glad they are giving us a warning.

[Bruce Perry]

I would much rather make a brief call to an uncontrolled airport with a quiet frequency and wake up the pilot burning circuits all by himself! It is always better to err on the side of safety.

IMHO

Your results may vary

Bruce

[KMac]

I was taught to make a call to unicom and ask for traffic advisories when about 10 miles out from the uncontrolled airport I learned to fly at. I think that was mainly because there was so few aircraft in the pattern (none regularly) that they wanted us to have a idea of airport conditions before we got close enough to enter a pattern. Now days flying around SoCal all you have to do is listen to the airport freq. at least 10 miles out and figure out how you are going to fit in to the pattern.

[GAHorn]

I didn't mean to seem ambiguous in my previous "please advise" post. I certainly agree that when approaching a field there is an obligation to make contact prior to entering the pattern.
The behavior I was denouncing is the pilot who doesn't first have a "listening watch" and barges in as if it's everyone else's responsibility to bring him/her up to date.
I've been operating at uncrontrolled fields where several of us in the pattern (including a few diligent students who are learning the ropes and are making regular position calls around the pattern) when someone in their high-performance airplane barges in announcing themselves on a long straight-in and telling everyone else to "advise" him of their position. The CORRECT thing for that person to do (in my honest opinion) is to 1-make a reasonable listening watch (and they'd have ample opportunity to hear other aircraft in the pattern, 2- get in line behind everyone else, after 3-flying high overhead to look down and observe the existing traffic which is already in the pattern, and 4-then announcing where he/she is entering existing traffic.
Last minute calls on the local freq. telling everyone else to advise him/her is bad form and dangerous practice. IMHO.
By the way....guess what the regs say about such "final approach entries"? The late comer who just barges in on straight-in final...has the right of way over other aircraft already in the pattern. Pretty rotten, huh? (Keep your heads up and your eyes peeled.)

(Then there's the new Lear pilots who want to "chat" on the CTAF to impress their buddies who are still doing "bounce" drills while he/she is cruising along at the Flight Levels...and tying up the CTAF's for a hundred miles all around!)

Let's all try to be considerate like the true professionals we all are/aspire to be.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

...The behavior I was denouncing is the pilot who doesn't first have a "listening watch" and barges in as if it's everyone else's responsibility to bring him/her up to date.

I completely agree. Darn high performance airplanes.

(Then there's the new Lear pilots who want to "chat" on the CTAF to impress their buddies who are still doing "bounce" drills while he/she is cruising along at the Flight Levels...and tying up the CTAF's for a hundred miles all around!)

What's wrong with that George. I always take the time on a MedEvac flight while passing over an uncontrolled field to call my buddies and tell them I'm passing through at FL1.5.

[KMac]

What's up with some of these jet pilots? Its like they never flew any small aircraft - they had to start somewhere. I was landing at CRQ (a nice airport where they have kicked all the small GA aircraft off to make room for the large corporate stuff - but that's another story) and after I kept my speed up on approach and made a decent landing, the jet guy behind me calls the tower and asks "is that guy going to get off the runway?". I hadn't even made it to the first turnoff yet. The tower answered back "Yes, he is." emplying, 'don't worry about it'. I wish I would have thought quick enough to tell him I was peddling as fast as I could. The really cool big iron drivers are the ones who still fly the small stuff on their days off for fun.

Clarification - I was on about a 1 mile final before the jet was even cleared for his approach from around 10 - 15 miles out.

[3958v]

Regaurding those guys that barge into the pattern like that we had a good one near here were a fellow did that. Another pilot informed him that there was quite a bit of traffic in the area and it would be safer under the circumstances to enter on a standard pattern. The guy on the long final gave the other guy a bunch of lip and proceded straight in anyway. On that note the pilot in the standard pattern landed behind and taxied in behind the first plane got out and flipped open his wallet with his FAA badge and said "I am ______ ________ from the FAA here to do a ramp check. The locals were amused and and I don't believe the other pilot was as quick with the mike button after that. I know I aways try to remember that much of the time you have no idea who is listening when you use that radio to transmit. Bill K

[Bill Rusk]

I'm with George. I hate the "please advise" phrase. It is NOT in the AIM. I have been known to ask what they would like advice on. You want advice on the Stock Market? Home Refinancing? OK.....I know it is not very professional but sometimes I just can't help it. It usually dosen't get a response.

Bill

[zero.one.victor]

.................................................................
(Standing on soap box , speaking to such jerk-) The rule requires YOU to listen in on the frequency for other traffic in the area....................
I certainly agree that when approaching a field there is an obligation
to make contact before entering the pattern.................

I beg to differ George. The reg's say nothing about having to listen to the radio, transmit on it, or even having a radio, at least when operating at a non-towered (aka out of control, oops I mean uncontrolled) airport. The rules do stress "see and avoid". The rules also state (as you pointed out) that an aircraft established on final approach has the right of way. So if I'm five miles out on a straight-in, I have the right of way over everybody who's done all the "standard" pattern/entry stuff. Whether or not I announce "Cessna 123 on final" on the radio. Like it or not, there it is. Check the FAR's.
That said, I dislike straight-in entries, I generally use a 45 or else a midfield overhead (crosswind or upwind) entry, so I can eyeball the field, the windsock, and any other idiot pilots in the pattern or on the ground. I also (generally) make position reports on the radio. Usually I even have the right frequency dialed in!

Eric

[N73087]

If you are on a 5 mile final, and I am flying a tight pattern, and I turn a close base and final and land and clear the runway without causing any delay to you, have I violated your right of way?