Insurance Quotes

[dacker]

Bruce, does USAA cover airplanes? I believe that I tried and they told me that they did not. Everything else I have or have had in the past 18 years has been with USAA (cars, boats, property, umbrella, etc.).
David

[LRF]

AUA (Aviation Unlimited Agency)
Greensboro, NC
R. C. (Mac) McGee, Vice President
1-800-727-3823

My Coverage:
Liability $1,000,000 / $100,000
Medical $3,000 each
Hull - All Risk Ground & Flight $35,000
Deductible $0 on ground or flight

My $1,600 annual premium may seem high, but I got this coverage with a whopping 20 hrs and no pilot certificate. I can't find the quotes, but it dropped significantly after reaching 100 hrs and other benchmarks. They were very good to work with. Best quote and coverage I could find.

[lowNslow]

Larry, thanks. Now I'm totally confused. Does AUA underwrite your policy or is that done by AIG, or USAIG or ???. They sure make this hard.

[lowNslow]

Bruce, does USAA cover airplanes? I believe that I tried and they told me that they did not. Everything else I have or have had in the past 18 years has been with USAA (cars, boats, property, umbrella, etc.).
David

They don't underwrite the coverage, but they do act as a broker and work with USAIG who actually underwrite the insurance.

[N2865C]

AUA is an insurance agency. They sell AIG policy's, as I'm sure other agency's do as well. I don't think that agency's can control the price of the policys, but they can control their markup. I dealt with Pam Sharpe at AUA. (800) 668-3410

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Karl

AUA is a broker like Travers.

I've been with AUA for a few years now. I've not dealt with any other broker so I may not know any different but I've been satisfied with their service and the quotes I've received from them.

But I've got to tell you I've heard good things about Travers. And if you look at the top right of our forum window you'll see that Travers is one of two companies that help support this forum.

If I had no relationship with any broker I'd have to give Travers a call.

David USAA did and apparently still does sell aviation insurance but unless things have changed you'll only get a quote from USAIG.

[tshort]

I get mine through Nationair, have had great service with them. The policy is from AIG.
250TT, essentially no TW time, hull value 36K, 1500/year.
Only stipulation is 10 dual before solo and 10 solo before passengers. I thought that was pretty reasonable for a tailwheel newbie.

Thomas

[webmaster]

Maybe I missed something? I thought AIG was of out of business, and those who wanted to were transferred to Travers? I thought Travers was the "official" insurer of TIC170A, offering discounts to members, but I see that Avemco advertises with us.

Miles

Travers & Associates purchased the aviation insurance policies of AIG, LTD. effective 8/11/03.

There is no "official" insurer of TIC170A. Both Travese & Associates and Avemco Insurance Co. support the association by purchasing advertising space on the website and in our print publications. I think it would be good to return the favor by, at least, getting quotes from them.

I went through Travers & Associates for my insurance, but the actual insuring company (that Travers & Associates found for me) is Phoenix Aviation Managers, Inc.

Dale

[lowNslow]

There is no "official" insurer of TIC170A. Both Travese & Associates and Avemco Insurance Co. support the association by purchasing advertising space on the website and in our print publications. I think it would be good to return the favor by, at least, getting quotes from them.

I went through Travers & Associates for my insurance, but the actual insuring company (that Travers & Associates found for me) is Phoenix Aviation Managers, Inc.

Thanks Dale, I requested a quote from Travers this morning. Got a quote for $956 for $35000 hull, $1M/100K/3K medical.

[lowNslow]

I wonder if it could be Carmel vs. Mojave base? What is your tailwheel experience and time in type? I think I have about 1700 tailwheel time, and since my airplane has more than 1400 hours more on it than it did when I bought it, I assume that's my time in type.

Miles, I have nearly 5000 tailwheel, with about 300 in type. It could have been a little extra commision do to the Carmel address or the insurer (USAIG). I just got a quote thre Travers for $956, waiting to see what USAIG comes up with.

[zero.one.victor]

I insure with AUA, thru their EAA Vintage program.They advertise in Vintage magazine. Same coverage as a couple others above: $35K hull, full coverage (thru inflight),$1M/100K/3K: $944 a year. Plus it costs me about $40 for the required EAA/Vintage membership.
AUA is a broker,the insurance folder sez AIG Aviation on it, and the actual policy coverage summary page sez it was issued by The Insurance Company Of The State Of Pennsylvania-- kinda sounds like The First National Bank of Dogpatch. Confusing.
I used to insure thru the old AIG brokers, when I asked for a renewal quote after Travers took over, the coverage excluded "off airport operations". I ended up going with AUA even though it was a bit more dough because they didn't have that exclusion. Then later the AUA renewal quote was cheaper than Travers.

Eric

[GAHorn]

Well, as per my original post in this thread.... The problem with everyone posting what/who/how much is.... we aren't all talking apples and apples.
Several posts here mention liability being $1M/$100K , as if that's a standard matter. It's not. The first number is the total amount the underwriter will pay in total should a claim arise. The second is the amount they will pay to any individual, who is usually defined as a "person" or a "passenger". It makes a big difference in the price of the insurance as to exactly which term is used.
(Warning: the following examples are not exactly correct...and are only intended to give coarse illustration to the difference between policies.)
Example: I have insurance that's $1M "smooth" (no individual limit). I land in the proverbial schoolyard and kill 20 kids. One of those kids is the grandchild of a famous lawyer who quickly sues and wins a $3m settlement. My underwriter writes him a check for $1M, and I'm left to pay the other $2M, PLUS any other lawsuits brought by the other 19 parents. In a smooth policy, there's no limit to what may be paid any individual.
Example 2: I have $1M/$100Kperson. I land in the schoolyard and kill 20 kids, and the famous lawyer sues and wins a $3M settlement. The insurance company pays him $100K and I'm left to pay $2.9M, PLUS any/all other settlements. The most any individual can collect from the policy is $100K. Any addt'l they must collect from ME.
Example 3: I have $1M/$100KPax. I land in the schoolyard and none of the kids killed are a passenger aboard the airplane. The rich lawyer wins his $3M suit, and I owe him the full $3M. The difference is if the rich lawyer isn't in the picture in this case, then each schoolkid can win up to the full $1M, and my two pax's can only collect $100K each, and I must pay any additional the survivors of my pax win in court. The most any pax can collect is $100K, but any other person is not limited (up to the amount of the policy) in what they can collect from the underwriter. Of course, any addt'l amount they win, they'll still come to ME for.
In each case, the underwriter's exposure is different, and they charge accordingly. (What if NO kids were hurt, but only pax's were hurt? The pax limit would be the limiting settlement. etc. etc. What if only 3 people were hurt, and my policy had a $100Kperson limit? Then the underwriter would only have to shell out $300K and they'd be off the hook for the rest of the $1M. If it were a smooth policy, that limitation would not apply, and the 3 persons could receive the entire $1M. If their lawsuit awarded them $500K each, then the underwriter would pay them $1M, and I'd have to come up with the other half-million. Of course, a smooth policy would make the underwriter a lot more interested in putting their own lawyers to work to defend me (and themselves) against the lawsuit.... and THATs the major advantage of a smooth policy... the fact that the ins. co., rather than just me would have an interest in putting lawyers to work to reduce any claims against me.)
What if Avemco were the underwriter and the pax that was hurt was my wife? Then the family exclusion Avemco writes into their policy would limit payment to her to only $25K, instead of the $100K any non-related pax would be insured to. (This is a major reason Avemco can usually quote a lower premium than other underwriters, IMHO, rather than the fact they do not use agents but quote directly. They know that the most likely pax you and I are likely to have will be our wife and/or kids. Therefore with a family exclusion their exposure is less. They will happily quote you a premium without the family exclusion, but it will increase the price of the insurance to about what the rest of the industry charges.

What if my buddy borrowed my plane? What if he isn't a named pilot on the policy? What "open pilot warranty" is written into the policy? That makes another difference. Does your policy include any "additional named insureds", such as an airport, or hangar, or club, or partner? Does a lien exist on your plane? Does your coverage area cover only the 48 contiguous states? Or does it include the Carribean? Canada? Alaska? (Alaska is a big additional expense on most policies.)

So it's not apples to apples if I say I'm paying X amount of dollars for my insurance, and someone else says they are paying only Y amount.....unless we know that all other parameters are exactly the same. This means total policy value, individual injury value (and the definition of that individual), the deductible, the hull value, the medical pay value, hangared, exclusions, etc etc.

[lowNslow]

Got a quote from USAA (USAIG) for $1175. Went with Travers for $962 (AIG) same coverage. Thanks for the help guys.

[N170BP]

Well, as per my original post in this thread.... The problem with everyone posting what/who/how much is.... we aren't all talking apples and apples.
Several posts here mention liability being $1M/$100K , as if that's a standard matter. It's not. The first number is the total amount the underwriter will pay in total should a claim arise. The second is the amount they will pay to any individual, who is usually defined as a "person" or a "passenger". It makes a big difference in the price of the insurance as to exactly which term is used.
Example: I have insurance that's $1M "smooth" (no individual limit). I land in the proverbial schoolyard and kill 20 kids. One of those kids is the grandchild of a famous lawyer who quickly sues and wins a $3m settlement. My underwriter writes him a check for $1M, and I'm left to pay the other $2M, PLUS any other lawsuits brought by the other 19 parents. In a smooth policy, there's no limit to what may be paid any individual.
Example 2: I have $1M/$100Kperson. I land in the schoolyard and kill 20 kids, and the famous lawyer sues and wins a $3M settlement. The insurance company pays him $100K and I'm left to pay $2.9M, PLUS any/all other settlements. The most any individual can collect from the policy is $100K. Any addt'l they must collect from ME.
Example 3: I have $1M/$100KPax. I land in the schoolyard and none of the kids killed are a passenger aboard the airplane. The rich lawyer wins his $3M suit, and I owe him the full $3M of which my insurance co. only pays $1M. The difference is if the rich lawyer isn't in the picture in this case, then each schoolkid can win up to the full $1M, and my two pax's can only collect $100K each, and I must pay any additional the survivors of my pax win in court. The most any pax can collect is $100K, but any other person is not limited (up to the amount of the policy) in what they can collect from the underwriter. Of course, any addt'l amount they win, they'll still come to ME for.
In each case, the underwriter's exposure is different, and they charge accordingly. (What if NO kids were hurt, but only pax's were hurt? The pax limit would be the limiting settlement. etc. etc. What if only 3 people were hurt, and my policy had a $100Kperson limit? Then the underwriter would only have to shell out $300K and they'd be off the hook for the rest of the $1M. If it were a smooth policy, that limitation would not apply, and the 3 persons could receive the entire $1M. If their lawsuit awarded them $500K each, then the underwriter would pay them $1M, and I'd have to come up with the other half-million. Of course, a smooth policy would make the underwriter a lot more interested in putting their own lawyers to work to defend me (and themselves) against the lawsuit.... and THATs the major advantage of a smooth policy... the fact that the ins. co., rather than just me would have an interest in putting lawyers to work to reduce any claims against me.)
What if Avemco were the underwriter and the pax that was hurt was my wife? Then the family exclusion Avemco writes into their policy would limit payment to her to only $25K, instead of the $100K any non-related pax would be insured to. (This is a major reason Avemco can usually quote a lower premium than other underwriters, IMHO, rather than the fact they do not use agents but quote directly. They know that the most likely pax you and I are likely to have will be our wife and/or kids. Therefore with a family exclusion their exposure is less. They will happily quote you a premium without the family exclusion, but it will increase the price of the insurance to about what the rest of the industry charges.

What if my buddy borrowed my plane? What if he isn't a named pilot on the policy? What "open pilot warranty" is written into the policy? That makes another difference. Does your policy include any "additional named insureds", such as an airport, or hangar, or club, or partner? Does a lien exist on your plane? Does your coverage area cover only the 48 contiguous states? Or does it include the Carribean? Canada? Alaska? (Alaska is a big additional expense on most policies.)

So it's not apples to apples if I say I'm paying X amount of dollars for my insurance, and someone else says they are paying only Y amount.....unless we know that all other parameters are exactly the same. This means total policy value, individual injury value (and the definition of that individual), the deductible, the hull value, the medical pay value, hangared, exclusions, etc etc.

Moral of the story:

Don't land in a schoolyard full of kids, no matter what.

Make your net worth / assets such that they are not easy
to get to by rich lawyers. Or... fly/crash such that even if you have
an incident, the chances of rich lawyers going after you are
minimized (either that, or crash such that you'll check-out and
won't have to worry about what happens afterward).

IOW, Fly your 170 and enjoy life. You can buy insurance for anything....
Insurance is like fire. Enough fire will cook your food and heat
your home. Too much will burn it down.

If you're concerned that the worst might/will happen and you need to
have bullet-proof insurance coverage, by all means, pay for said
coverage and go ahead and (try to) enjoy life.

Some folks feel the need to pay for coverage that "covers them" no
matter what they do, or no matter what kind of hand fate deals them.
Some others try to live their life as best as they can, and they roll with
the punches that are dealt them.

All that being said, I agree it's a bit pointless to compare premium rates
without knowing the specificis of the policies / coverage being discussed.

Personally, I pay for reasonable liaibility and (probably) slightlly less
than current market value for hull coverage, and it is under $1K/year.

If I crash into a school yard and kill 20 kids (and survive), I'd rather
take my own life than worry about what my policy covered.... Who
can put any amount of value on the lives of 20 children?

[johneeb]

Bela, are you trying to find out why George has been so quite these last few weeks?

ps. I like your philosophy.