Vortex Generators

[zero.one.victor]

Check the Micro VG website, I believe that they cost about $700 for something like a Pacer. But for a 170A/B they're like $1400?
Trouble with the non-STC'd variety (I assume you're talking about the Landshorter VG's) is that you're kinda on your own as far as placement goes, as I understand it. the Micro's come with a template. I also understand that you need to buy 2 $100 sets from Landshorter to have enough to do the job, especially on a long-wing airplane like the 170.
But BL's got a good idea, try the cheapie's to see if you like what VG's do, then either try for a field approval or pony up the big dough for the STC'd ones.
BTW, I think a Sportsman STOL kit (cuff,etc) is in the $1,500 range, plus is a lot more labor to install. But it may produce better results.
I think personally that unless you're gonna be pushing the envelope with regards to STOL op's, you might be better off just spending your VG money on gas for lots and lots of practice. I think the pilot's skills make more difference than the airplane mods in a lot of cases.

Eric

[GAHorn]

Along with all this I wondered if anyone has heard any pros and cons of any particular brands. I had heard from one man that he thought that the ones mounted further back on the wing worked better. Also I haven't checked prices except for the non stc'd ones which were $100. But I did talk with a guy that put them on a maule and he liked them ad said they were around $600. and took about a 12 pack to put on with a friend. Gary

Have you ever known anybody to spend a bunch of money on modifying their airplane and then said it wasn't worth a toot? I've found that once someone spends that kind of money, they are reluctant to admit it was a poor decision. You might as well ask them if they love their wife when she's standing next to them.

[lowNslow]

BTW, I think a Sportsman STOL kit (cuff,etc) is in the $1,500 range, plus is a lot more labor to install. But it may produce better results.
I think personally that unless you're gonna be pushing the envelope with regards to STOL op's, you might be better off just spending your VG money on gas for lots and lots of practice. I think the pilot's skills make more difference than the airplane mods in a lot of cases.

Eric

Some interesting specs given for the Sportsman STOL kit.

http://www.dandtaircraft.com/stolkit.php

[zero.one.victor]

I just checked out the D and T link-- I'm writing them a check as we speak! Man, that cuff does everything but make your coat shinier!
Seriously, they sure talk a good show. Seemed like the improvements they claim for the 170B are even greater than those claimed for the 180 & 182.
Miles, D&T in California City isn't too far away from your stompin' grounds- know anything about them?
I do recall hearing recently that someone else is now selling the Sportsman cuff. And from the website info, it looks like that's all the Sportsman kit is, a cuff- no fences or droopy tips.

Eric

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

George perhaps you didn't notice that I said I didn't pay for my VGs. They were a door prize I won. I installed them myself and a friend signed of the 337. I have zip, zerro, nota thats nothing invested in them.

If I didn't think they worked I'd tell you all.

Further more I invite ANYONE at anytime to look me up and we'll go for a spin and they can decide for themselves.

[zero.one.victor]

Bruce, don't try to confuse George with any facts!

[cessna170bdriver]

Miles, D&T in California City isn't too far away from your stompin' grounds- know anything about them?

Eric

The last time I visited at D&T (at least a couple of years ago), they were only in the business of aircraft interiors. Their Sportsman kit is news to me. The Sportsman STOL kit goes way back as I remember. I don't know if they bought the rights to it, or are just installers. When I get home from Florida, I'll ask around.

Miles

[Indopilot]

We installed a Sportsman on our 171(172 Taildragger) two years ago during our wings overhaul. Just before Marshall Quackenbush brought D&T onboard. Since we were making new leading edges to install and were able to get the kit at $700 we convinced our wives that it was a matter of safety. Since the wings were open already we installed the cuffs with #3 rivets instead of the cherry rivets supplied with the kit. Makes a much nicer installation. It did lower our stall speed, but the biggest thing we noticed is the stall characteristics. Instead of the stall and break, it does the falling leaf, meaning it will stall with a slight pitch down but will immediatelystart flying again. If you maintain the same attitude it will mush,fly,mush fly and doesn't seem as sensitive to being coordinated at the time of the stall. I would say it is well worth the money.
They also did a comparison between company 206's one with Robertson and one with Sportsman and found that the performance to be very close. In actual field conditions the Robertson equiped A/C is a little more comfortable getting out of a tight strip with a load. If you need a slight boost in performance I think I would go with the Sportsman over the Robertson due to cost as well as the complexity and Maintenance.FWIW

[GAHorn]

George perhaps you didn't notice that I said I didn't pay for my VGs. They were a door prize I won. I installed them myself and a friend signed of the 337. I have zip, zerro, nota thats nothing invested in them.

If I didn't think they worked I'd tell you all.

Further more I invite ANYONE at anytime to look me up and we'll go for a spin and they can decide for themselves.

Bruce, I did notice. I wasn't referring to you or your airplane. I was speaking of mods in general. No slight was intended.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Thanks George, I was getting upset.

In general I would agree with your observation. On the other hand I know several people who would yell and scream to anyone that would listen how they got took. And it's not their fault.

[buchanan]

George writes:

Have you ever known anybody to spend a bunch of money on modifying their airplane and then said it wasn't worth a toot? I've found that once someone spends that kind of money, they are reluctant to admit it was a poor decision. You might as well ask them if they love their wife when she's standing next to them.

I say:
Mike Vivion installed VG's on his 180hp/170 and says he wouldn't do it again. He also has the Sportsman and says it is worth the $$$. He also says the VG's are worthwhile on other aircraft.

Pardon me for "speaking" for you Mike.

Best..............Buck

[GAHorn]

Geez! I said "I've found" and "reluctant". Whats up with you guys?

[blueldr]

I am acquainted with two Cessna pilots, both aeronautical engineers, who have installed VGs on three types of Cessnas; C-180, C170B, and C-172.
The only significant effect was on the C-170B in that they felt that elevator control was improved at lower speeds on landing, this being due to the VGs on the under side of the horizontal stabilizer.
Since the wings are identical aerodynamically, I can understand that the results would be the same on all of them.
The same VGs were later installed on a Piper Super Cub and made a significant difference.
I also have a friend who installed them on a Harmon Rocket for a highly significant improvement on his landing speed, though he lost some cruise speed.
Seems that it pretty much depends on the wing they're installed on.