j 3 cub

jrenwick · Post by **jrenwick** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:33 pm

Iowa,

If you want to buy an L4 project and putz away on it, you either need the FAA licenses to make it airworthy, or you need a good relationship with an A&P with Inspection Authorization (IA). Before you start the project (or even buy it), make friends with an IA, then take his or her advice and do what they tell you, because they'll have to sign off on all of your work.

The regulations are what they are because the FAA has, long ago, taken the legal responsibility for the assertion that an aircraft that conforms to the L4 specification is airworthy, and they've issued each L4 a certificate saying so. Maintaining this airworthiness means nothing about it is broken, or if it is, it has been repaired according to acceptable methods in the FAA's eyes. Any modifications have been approved by the FAA, either through the STC process or some special approval. All work must be documented, because if it's not, the FAA can't be sure what's been done, and can't certify continued airworthiness. This is the price we pay for being allowed to put things up in the air that can fall down and hurt people.

If the NHTSA or some other agency certified each automobile or Jeep as "roadworthy," you'd have the same kinds of regulations there.

Best Regards,

John

iowa · Post by **iowa** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:14 pm

i'm getting the picture!
i'm a great accepter,
i'll abide by the rules.
i'll have to think about all this.
i really don't have many A+P's near me.
its in the middle of no where here.
maybe i'd better stick to jeeps.
thanks for all your help.
dave

Dward · Post by **Dward** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:23 pm

Hey Iowa, if you were willing to buy an original and convert to experimental, why not just build an exp. as an L4? I believe the sport trainer for one (wag aero)is available with L4 supplimental drawings and you won't be able to tell it from the real thing.

jrenwick · Post by **jrenwick** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:44 pm

Dward wrote:Hey Iowa, if you were willing to buy an original and convert to experimental, why not just build an exp. as an L4? I believe the sport trainer for one (wag aero)is available with L4 supplimental drawings and you won't be able to tell it from the real thing.

And if you want to go that way, there's a pretty good online group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/piper-cub-builders

John

iowa · Post by **iowa** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:42 pm

thats an idea.
it would be nice to own an authentic L-4 tho.
i'll check that site out.
thanks
iowa

blueldr · Post by **blueldr** » Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:45 am

Be advised that you can not convert a certified airplane to experimental and then operate it like a homebuilt. You can get an experimental "Development", "Exhibition", etc., but then you are limited to a relatively short radius from a designated airport, and you must get written permission from the FAA supervising authority to go any place else and you must have some sort of reason that is in accordance with your experimental certificate.
Can you just immagine how many people would switch their registrations just to be able to add any modification, Propeller, engine, or other gadget without having to get permission from the fuzz? God that would be great!!!

Post by **Bruce Fenstermacher** » Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:08 am

BL I agree with you except for one thing. Because of the Cubs construction it wouldn't be to hard to use an authentic L-4 frame lets say, build the rest out of gathered parts that now happen to be pma'd and register it under the amateur home built.

The would be nearly impossible to do with a "Spam Can" 170.

Oh Oh I mean a beautiful 170. Forgot what forum I was one for a minute.

Post by **GAHorn** » Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:54 am

N9149A wrote:BL I agree with you except for one thing. Because of the Cubs construction it wouldn't be to hard to use an authentic L-4 frame lets say, build the rest out of gathered parts that now happen to be pma'd and register it under the amateur home built.

The would be nearly impossible to do with a "Spam Can" 170.

Oh Oh I mean a beautiful 170. Forgot what forum I was one for a minute.

Heresy alert! Heresy altert! Buzz! Buzz! Whoop! Whoop! AaaOooogaaaahhhh!!! AaaOooogaaaaahhh!!!! .......

iowa · Post by **iowa** » Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:45 pm

is there a site on the internet
that would describe the steps it would take to
restore an old airplane to be certifiablly airworthy,
and again the steps to build a homebuilt.
it seems there is a big difference between the two.
otherwise, no one would be allowed to fly their
RV's to oshkosh.
sorry to beat this topic to death,
i'll end it soon.
iowa

Post by **GAHorn** » Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:26 pm

Doc, ya might check out a membership at EAA if you really wanna do somthing like that. That's what they're all about and they have all sorts of local chapters with talented folks who'll readily help you!

iowa · Post by **iowa** » Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:42 pm

believe it or not,
i am a member!!
just never done much w/it.
will check it out,
and let this thread rest!
thanks everyone's help.
iowa

Post by **Bruce Fenstermacher** » Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:50 pm

George is right about the EAA. That is what they are all about. I take it you don't have anyone around your airport to discuss this with. Not that we mind it's good review for some and I'm sure many readers like yourself who don't know and always wondered.

The difference between a "homebuilt" and a "certified" airframe when you break it down is the category of certification that each receives it's airworthiness certificate under.

A certificate of some kind is required for all aircraft to be legally flown except ultra lights flown under FAR 103 which we aren't discussing here and NO a J3/L-4 can't be certified under 103.

Military aircraft are also not certified but the manufacturer might build a civilian version of the aircraft that does meet a type certificate. L-4s meet the J3 type certificate and where included on it and that is why they can be flown under a Standard category airworthiness certificate.

Most production aircraft like our 170s received a Standard category airworthiness certificate. A home built would receive an Experimental category certificate. The FARs will tell you how and who can build or work on an airframe and who and how they are inspected to make sure they meet the standards which each was certified under.

I haven't been there for a while but wouldn't be surprised if you can't find further explanation at the EAA web site (eaa.com) with out joining.

Post by **GAHorn** » Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:46 pm

N9149A wrote:...The difference between a "homebuilt" and a "certified" airframe when you break it down is the ...

Not quite, Bruce. The difference when you break it down is the cost to fix it!

N2255D · Post by **N2255D** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:10 am

I haven't been there for a while but wouldn't be surprised if you can't find further explanation at the EAA web site (eaa.com) with out joining.

Bruce I think the EAA is at http://WWW.EAA.Org

iowa · Post by **iowa** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:27 pm

i have been a member of eaa for years,
but have never utilized their services.
so i signed up to see all the info for member only
and have discovered a multitude of articles
explaining the process of having an experimental certified.
if i restored an actual L-4,
it would involve a horrendous amount of costly inspections.
but, on the other hand,
i build an exact replica of an L-4
using the J3 plans,
then only one inspection is required.
so...i'll either buy an L-4 already done,
or built a replica.
of course, i have to finish my slat grill,
my 53 MG TD and then maybe
my wife will let me start on a homebuilt!!
iowa