Considering a 170 and loking for advise

hoda · Post by **hoda** » Wed Dec 25, 2002 4:42 pm

Hello 170 pilots and Merry Christmas. I'm new to your board and don't know much about your favorite plane, but I want to learn. I've been a souped-up Champ (115 hp) driver for the past 7 years and recently sold my plane, although I have two other Aernoca projects (a Champ and Chief) as well as a flying Starduster II. I've had my eye on a 170 for a couple of years that has been setting in a barn for several years. The fella that owns it is 80+ years young and has never been interested is selling, at least until yesterday. He called to let me know he wanted to sell it, so here's where the advise part comes in. If I was looking at an Aeronca, I'd know what I should be looking at but I don't know a thing about the 170. So, I was hoping to learn from you guy's experience and guidance. I don't know allot about the plane, I think it's a 1954, it's together (not disassembled) and that it has a newer model 0-300 engine with an alternator and vacuum pump; that's about it. I'm going to take a hard look at it and any help would be appreciated. I've got plenty of projects and I'm wanting a plane that I can get back in the air without a complete rebuild.

-So is there something I should specifically look for or at?
-Anything in general I should be concerned about with this type plane?
-I haven't seen the logs, although he has them, is that 0-300 engine approved for the plane? That swap done with a STC or service letter. My guess is that it was done without the STC (if needed) so what does that STC cost? I would want to get the paperwork right if it's not.
-He has told me that the spar cap is going to need replacement. He describes it as a 2 or 3" cap on the exterior across the cabin. Any concerns with that? I haven't seen it yet, but it sounds like it can be replaced without much difficulty.
-The engine is low time and runs good. He is asking 13K for the plane. It seems the price range for this type of plane is in the 25-40K range. I know that not seeing the plane makes this question objective, but does his price sound reasonable? Having rebuilt several other planes, I have an idea what it costs to get one back to flying condition. I'm interested in your 170 experienced opinion.

Sorry for the long first post, I'll keep it shorter after this one. Thanks for you help in making my decision.

David

BloomerJohn · Post by **BloomerJohn** » Wed Dec 25, 2002 5:04 pm

Dave,
if the engine is low time, and tests out well, I would take it at 12K and depending on the condition, either flyit as is or begin a rebuild or restoration to bring the value up to the 40K mark. I am confident (if engine is good) you could part the thing out and get your $ out of it.
John

Roesbery · Post by **Roesbery** » Wed Dec 25, 2002 7:18 pm

Corrosion would be the big thing to look for. Then decide what it takes to repair it. Sounds like the wing attach points need a extra close look. Look hard at the gear castings. Get somebody with sheetmetal experience to help you since it sounds like your experience is mostly with fabric planes. At that price in this day and age even if you put another 10 grand into it you will be ahead. my $.02

flyer170 · Post by **flyer170** » Wed Dec 25, 2002 10:22 pm

I agree with Rosebery look for corrosion. If it has been in a barn look for mouse nests everywhere in the aircraft. Use a mirror to see in hard to reach places. Mouse urine is very corrosive.
You may have to check the engine if it has been sitting a long time and hasn't been pickeled. Hours add up on the engine just sitting or flying.
12k sounds reasonable anyway you look at it but be ready to put some money into it. You will like flying the 170 it is everything that it is advertised to be.
My 2 cents
Bob

N1478D · Post by **N1478D** » Wed Dec 25, 2002 11:13 pm

Sounds like it could be a very good buy. While you are checking it out with the good advice from the other posts, also take a cloth and run over the control cables to see if any are frayed. AirTex makes all of the interior so that would be very easy if it needs one.

blueldr · Post by **blueldr** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 2:36 am

Did you say 13K? Buy it! Thats about half the price of a real dog.

wa4jr · Post by **wa4jr** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 3:34 am

I'm always hearing of guy finding great planes in barns. I've made it a point to look in every barn I can find to see if there is an airplane just waiting for some TLC. Every barn I fly over I think of it having a jewel of an old airplane just sitting there for the taking. So how do we find these barns anyway? At 12K, I'd be tempted to just FedEx the check sight unseen. I think I'd ask for a few photos if I could not go there in person within a reasonable amount of time. Even with some corrosion and major damage, I'd snap it up. I'm a sucker for projects that a lot of folks would walk away from, but I always have the last laugh. I say BUY it as QUICK as you can, and enjoy learning about the old lady while you fix her up! I'm going to look in some more barns tomorrow! Somewhere in the country there must be one more barn with one more airplane...and then I can tell the story of finding a jewel in the rough!

hoda · Post by **hoda** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 5:36 am

Guys, thanks for all the quick replieys and great input. I've seen the plane many times; I used to fly to his place in my Champ. Offered him rides, but he never would take me up; we stayed in touch. I've made arrangements to look the 170 over real close this week end. Don't give up and keep checking those barns. Got to tell you, I bought a Champ basket case (Rough but had a good hart!) for $200 (Yes $200 with papers, although it took a year to get the title cleared up.) out of a barn 10 years ago. The mouse comment was exactly right; the only thing I got out of the wings was the fittings. What the urine didn't destroy, the mice ate! It's been flying for 4 years and a friend has it now; still get to stretch the old girl out every now and then. I'll let you know how the more in-depth closer look goes.

Thanks again,

David

Dave Clark · Post by **Dave Clark** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 1:46 pm

You might just plan on doing an engine if it has sat for a while. It's a very familiar story. A fellow on my field just bought a nice looking straight tail 172 with 1100 hrs on the engine but had been used very little the last few years. Once he flew it about 50 hours there was enough metal in the screen to require a teardown. You need to be preared for that financially and mentally.

doug8082a · Post by **doug8082a** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 2:15 pm

I definitely agree with the previous posts re:engine and corrosion. Sitting idle is the worst thing for anything mechanical. Being in a barn, the equation "((Barn + Airplane = Mouse House) x Time = Corrosion)" springs to mind. Anyway, having bought a '52 170B that had sat idle off and on, I can tell you a few things that I ran into...
1. Wheel bearings were shot.
2. Brakes. The one of the pucks was siezed. I was great at doing doughnuts on the ramp

3. Oil sump. The C-145/O-300 has a Magnesium oil sump and moisture in the settling out of oil (from prolonged inactivity or not running it up to temp. to burn it off) has been known to corrode them. Mine had so little material left that my mechanic was able to poke a hole though it with a metal probe.

4. Fuel tank bays. I pulled my tanks two years ago and found LOTS of dead bugs and obvious evidence of a mouse nest (and a good portion of the insulation that was once in the cabin under the headliner). I removed enough "stuff" from the two bays to fill a coffee can. We cleaned it up and zinc chromated the bays.

Even with the possibility of some headaches, if you are prepared mentally and financially to put the time and effort into it, I'd say it's worth the 13K. I've seen "project" 170s go for more than that in TAP.

Good luck with her...

hoda · Post by **hoda** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 3:53 pm

Now you guys got me fired up, I'm going this morning to do that inspection! Too nasty to fly, to wore out after Christmas to work on a project, so a trip to his place is better than sitting on the couch. Doug and Dave thanks for you comments. Dave, I'm especially interested in your tale. I can tell the exact story. A bud bought a straight tail 1956 172 after setting for a while, flew it about 50 hours and lost oil pressure due to metal in the screen. Millenium overhaul (ouch!) cured that problem, but it was interesting what we found the cause of the metal to be. It was the wrist pin plugs, they deteriorated. Was wondering if your friend found the same thing. Top might be in order first thing. This engine came off a CAP plane that went down; that is what bothers me a little, I haven't heard if the engine is certified for the plane. Once I see the logs, I'll check the TCD and see.

Thanks again guys, you all have been very helpful.

David

doug8082a · Post by **doug8082a** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 4:40 pm

BTW, if the engine is an O-300-A, it is listed on the TCS for the 170 as it is basically the same thing as the C-145. If the engine is an O-300-D (with accessory case to handle a vacuum pump) then it is listed on STC SA7441SW. I've heard of several 170s with the O-300-D mod, don't know if they were installed via field approval or the above STC, but either way approval shouldn't be an issue.... although with the latest field approval BS these days, who knows

Dave Clark · Post by **Dave Clark** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 8:28 pm

David

I don't know what the metal was from yet. Of course you can get a pretty good look at things with the cylinders off but a rusted cam and followers are pretty common. They seem to take up to 100 hours to fail sometimes while the upper end parts seem to shed metal much earlier. My point is that it's such a common problem yet a lot of people get caught because of over optimism (my case) or just not knowing. I suggest that if the buyer is not willing or able to do an engine then he should stay away from those types of planes.

hoda · Post by **hoda** » Fri Dec 27, 2002 4:04 am

Well, I took a good look at the old girl today. She's an all metal 1953 B, I think. I'm afraid she is suffering from a bad skin disorder. The front spar carry-through looks like it is corroded to the point it will need replacing; the cap over the carry-through has holes corroded in it. There are several places where corrosion is bad enough skin panels will have to be replaced. It's a shame, it's a pretty straight plane with a panel that looks like it has never been cut. It's a great start for a complete rebuild, but like I said earlier, I'm full on rebuilds and I looking for something that I could but back in the air pretty quickly. So for now, the jury is still out. I want to do a little research on what I think it will take to repair before jumping in. Who's an airframe repair expert out there?

One other question for you guys, did any of the 170s have the cowling like a early 172? The cowling has doors (about 1'X1') that open with two flush latches; exactly what the early 172s I have had contact with had. In the book I was using for reference, it shows the 170 had latches that raised the whole side. Also, the nose bowl is split. Sound right?

David

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Fri Dec 27, 2002 5:40 am

The 48-52 had the (good) fully opening cowl,53-56 went to the peek-a-boo hatches. I think the later cowl also had the split nose bowl.

Eric