Insurance, again...

BobK · Post by **BobK** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:44 pm

Hello all,

Im still searching for the "right" 170 to start my flight training, and enjoy all the facets of being a pilot. Ive looked at several planes, and may be narrowing the field down to just a couple soon. In doing so I have called to get a more recent quote for insurance.....

I've been told that Avemco is the way to go in Alaska, as they have no weasel-clause for accidents/incidents that occur off-airport. They dont care if you're operating out of a gravel-bar or a frozen patch of tundra, you just have to let them know if you go floats or not. I had a quote from them last October for a Cessna 152, just to get a ballpark of what it would cost for insurance on a training aircraft. (Before I saw the light, and realized that a 170 was the plane for me !)

I called again today to get an updated quote on a 170... $40,000 hull value for a 0-time student pilot is $3521 a year !!! I dont exactly relish the idea of paying more per month for insurance than I do my airplane...

Ive read the other post on this board about Insurance, and was wondering if the other companies (Travers, AIG, AOPA, etc...) had clauses about off-airport operations ? Most of the draw of the 170 for me is the ability to land off airport. Im starting to wonder about the necessity of a tailwheel as it relates to the direct costs of ownership... Its already going to cost about $10k more for a 170 than a similarly equiped 172, plus an extra $1000-1200 per year for insurance.

I've tried to come up with what I'll be using this plane for mostly, and I really dont have an answer... Flying would be the obvious answer, but since Ive never owned a plane, I dont exactly know what I'll end up doing with it. I do like the idea of being able to land off-airport, especially since they are so few and far between here in Alaska. And many of the "strips" that people use here are barely more than an old Jeep trail that someone brushed out for the wings to clear...

I guess Im really just looking for some ideas, opinions, suggestions here.

Thanks for all the help !!!

Bob K.
Anchorage, Alaska

N2865C · Post by **N2865C** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:58 pm

$3521 a year !!!

I would be making a lot of phone calls! The policy I have from AUA http://www.auaonline.com/ does not have an off airport exclusion. It was just a few dollars more than quote I got from Travers which did have the exclusion. Most insurance people you deal with are brokers and get quotes from many companys. Tell them you want a policy without the off airport exclusion when you call.

N3243A · Post by **N3243A** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:55 pm

Hello Bob!

Welcome to the wonderful world of Alaska aircraft insurance. We can expect to pay almost double the rate of the lower 48 and have far fewer companies to pick from. Most won't underwrite at all up here. The rate quoted you sounds about par for a newbie. I used to insure with Avemco until my loan was paid off then have been going "bare" because of these outlandish premiums. Avemco and others will say that insuring the typical Alaska airplane has to be higher to cover:
1. the high cost of helicopter salvage recovery if you screw up out in the bush off the road system.
2. Increasing parts costs for 40 and 50 year old aircraft.
3. The propensity of Alaskan pilots to push their off field skills too far and end up bending sheet metal and/or using their props as rototillers.

For what it's worth, I just recieved a recent quote from Avemco and with 9 years of experience and 1100 hours in type they still wanted $2474 a year with $50K hull so it looks like you are paying a $1000+ penalty having a 0 time in type. Your rate will go down in a few years and few hundred hours but it's still too much for me.

Insurance is a funny thing. Some will say you are insane to go without it. Maybe... but I know I have saved enough in the last 4 years to pay for half of my recent engine overhaul. My opinion, keep the airplane mechanically perfect, to avoid mechanical incidents. Little things like brake problems can cost big time. Keep your skills sharp and be conservative. I always ask myself in a marginal off field scenario if the fish, moose, caribou, etc. is worth betting the plane for. The answer still keeps coming up no. If one has insurance the answer may occasionally be a yes then watch out!!

Bruce, '53 170B N3243A

blueldr · Post by **blueldr** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:52 am

If it's a working airplane, set your rates to insure it.

If the airplane is financed, you'll have to cover the banker.

If it is just a personal toy you have to decide whether you want to fly insured or eat.

or170B · Post by **or170B** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:54 am

Blue leader I love your style its always short and to the point!! Keep it up

iowa · Post by **iowa** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:19 am

an interesting side note:
my brother in minn
along with his father-in-law
have owned a early 60's sylane
from that time.
they dropped (hull) insurance
about 40 years ago
mainly because they crop dusted with it.
the premiums were too high.
they are still flying it!!
never had a wreck.
lets see....40 x ..... is how much?
i know most simpy cannot do this
but they did!
iowa

BobK · Post by **BobK** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:43 pm

Thank you for all your replies ! I had quite a chuckle reading Blue Leaders response, as it makes so much sense its a bit shocking.

This isnt the first time Ive been quoted something outrageous for insurance... I remember getting a quote for motorcycle insurance when I was 16 for a brand new Honda CBR600F3.... $4500 for a summer to insure a $6000 motorcycle !!! That one didnt add up either.

I'll do some checking and see if I can find a lower rate. I'd like to insure it if at all possible, at least for my first hundred hours or so, when I am probably most likely to pull a bonehead manuver. (Not that I plan on doing any such thing.)

Thanks again !!!

Bob K.
Anchorage, Alaska

hilltop170 · Post by **hilltop170** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:18 pm

No matter what you do about hull insurance, don't fly without liability. Get enough liability to at least keep you from going bankrupt if something happens.

The best way to keep from needing whatever insurance you do have is to keep the plane maintained well and don't ask yourself or the plane to go beyond what it is capable of.

gwillford · Post by **gwillford** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:12 pm

Insure it!

Lost my 47 PA-12 (93 OSH Res Grand Champ) in June of 06 because a tornado collapsed my hangar. My C170B project started as a result of hail 3 years ago on the only week I had it stored outside.

My friends won't even park next to me any more!

George

N9062A · Post by **N9062A** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:46 am

I pay $1782yr with avemco here in Anchorage and that includes off airport landings. No problems with them so far. I started as a zero time pilot training in this aircraft. 600hours now and the price keeps going down.

Post by **GAHorn** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:54 pm

Not only for your own protection of your estate, etc., but also for your sense of responsibility, make certain that you at least insure for liability. Loss of the brakes and taxying into someone elses plane (or worse!) could be a financial AND emotional disaster unless you at least had the insurance to protect yourself and to take care of the injuries suffered by others due to your operation and ownership.
Liabilty is affordable for anyone who has the wherewithall to own a plane at all, and it's the right thing to do. IMHO

tshort · Post by **tshort** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:42 am

The other thing about liability coverage (in this day and age) is that it buys you the legal defense resources of your carrier. Sometimes you may not really be liable, but the cost to defend yourself ain't cheap either. An insurance company that stands to lose hundreds of thousands of dollars can probably muster up some serious lawyering on your behalf.

T.