Comparing Taildraggers

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Are you sure your not a lawyer George

When you put it that way my position is difficult to defend but (you know there was going to be a but) the word avoid is not as definitive as if Cessna had used words to the effect the maneuver is prohibited.

As it is it is OK to find yourself in a slip with full flaps in a B model if you tried to avoid the maneuver.

[GAHorn]

I don't believe the word "prohibited" is in Cessna's vocabulary. It does not appear anywhere I can see in the AFM. That does not make all the items to be avoided "OK" in occasional cases.
Example: "Abrupt manuevers should be avoided in speeds exceeding the manuevering speed."

and..:"it is the responsibility of the pilot and operator to see that the weight and balance are within limitations." Does that mean that since operations outside those limitations are not specifically "prohibited" that there may be some exclusions to that rule? Just because an extra 300 lbs might not kill you on a particular flight....does that make it OK occasionally to simply "avoid" being overweight? Of course not.

Despite the lack of the use of the word "prohibited".... slips are not to be deliberately attempted with full flaps in a B-model. Trust me. It's as important as any of the other gently-worded limitations on this airplane.

(I remember feeling my Wheaties as a young CFI in a 172 demonstrating that a 172 can be slipped without fear even if full flaps are deployed, despite what Cessna warns about it. I'd heard a more experienced, mature CFI make a statement regarding "aerodynamics" and how there was no "aerodynamic" reason that a plane couldn't be slipped with flaps deployed. So I even demonstrated it to a couple of students and "proved" it to them. Thirty years later I now look back and hope no one was ever hurt by my foolish demonstration against sound operating practices. As for the other "mature CFI"? He died in an airplane crash turning base-to-final with full flaps deployed. It was suspected that the turn was an uncoordinated (slipped) one.)

[lowNslow]

Also placarded on the flap handle. "Avoid slips with full flaps" as I recall.

B model IPC Fig. 68 item 72, page 113, p/n 0510188

This placard was installed by Cessna but is not required per Type Cert. so some airplanes my not have it.

The CAA (FAA) Approved Flight Manual (AFM) is required equipment to be onboard the aircraft and it's limitations must be observed. The AFM, Notes, Item 6 states, "Avoid sideslips with full flap (40') extension."

I don't know what Cessnas discription of "avoid" is, I was just pointing out that whatever they meant it is still not a required placard according to the TCDS.

[SteveF]

I am rapidly getting to the point of being sorry I said anything in this particular forum. It has turned into a classic Philadelphia lawyer play on words instead of guidance with selecting a trainer and a transgression to a discussion of flap safety.

It started out as a request for help with selecting a good conventional gear plane to get basic training in, progressed to a discussion of the pitfalls of slipping with full flaps, and degenerated into an argument over the semantics of a couple of English words.

As has been said in some of the other forums “get over it and let’s move on”.

[GAHorn]

SteveF, It's not uncommon in any forum for a subject to "morph" into discussions of other somewhat-related topics. There is no reason to regret having brought up a subject for discussion, although perhaps a good moderator might split the topic into another area to preserve the original subject matter. (I'll work on that.)

In any event, I believe your request for information has been addressed.... I read the responses to recommend you obtain a 170 for your training...and then you'd already be familiar with it for your long-term ownership enjoyment.

[doug8082a]

George, I think you got folks confused. "hkcarter" was the one asking for taildragger trainer info... SteveF already has a 170 (which I've had the opportunity to fly a few times... thanks Steve ). Steve was just adding some experience to the "slips with full flaps" discussion.

Steve, don't let the change in direction keep you from adding to this or future topics. This is one of those topics that people hear about but few have actual experience in. Adding your experience to the discussion was a good thing and gave support to what some may consider an old wives tale.

If people want to get wrapped up in semantics then let them have their fun. IF it gets too out of hand George can break up the thread into separate topics... wouldn't be the first time... or the last. Some even get deleted, but we won't go there (thanks George)

[GAHorn]

Yes, I forgot and got Steve's refrerence to the original topic as indicating it was posted by himself. No problems.
In any case...
... I rec'd a more informed description of the relationship between NASA (ASRS) Blue-Forms and FAA activities, directly from an FAA type who should know:
"The FAA processes an enforcement case without regard to whether or not the alleged violator filed an ASRS report. The FAA may not use any information in an ASRS report as evidence in the case. The same rule applies to facts obtained from the NTSB. If our Risk Assessment indicates legal enforcement action, FAA inspectors investigate the case and file enforcement reports (EIRs) which are reviewed by office management, regional specialists, then forwarded to our regional legal offices. Legal reviews them and makes final determination of whether or not a violation occurred. An informal hearing is offered to the airman to discuss the case and provide an opportunity for resolution. After the informal, if legal still believes the violation meets FAA enforcement criteria, they determine the sanction which is suspension, revocation, or civil penalty in most cases. If an ASRS report is found to have been properly filed by the alleged violator and the other criteria are met, the sanction is not imposed. A finding of violation will be recorded, however, and the airman has full right to appeal including a hearing before an NTSB Administrative Law Judge, the full NTSB, and the United States Court of Appeals. The ASRS report shields him/her from the sanction only. If the appeal is sucessful, then the entire matter is expunged from the airman's record. Even if a finding of violation is upheld, it is my understanding that the record will eventually be expunged. Incidently, everything the FAA does can be found in either 14 CFR or Title 49 USC and those rules/laws will explain it far better than I can. "Legal Interpretations" only address the specific question posed in the request for interpretation. They are not case law. They reflect current FAA enforcement policy. Only opinions rendered by NTSB (and not overturned on appeal) have legal weight. Short of that, my advice is to read the simple language off the rule and not too much more. "

[Haydon]

I am still laughing ...about Bruce calling George a "lawyer" Let this be a lesson A model folks don't have these kind of "discussions." We are sort of "middle of the road" 170 folks....we don't get our dust ruffles or flaps in an uproar......

Richard...

[hilltop170]

Richard-
No kidding! Even an A-model will land shorter than it can take off. I have found if I need to descend faster, either slow down or slip with full flaps. A-models can do it safely, they don't have the restriction.

[GAHorn]

Richard-
No kidding! Even an A-model will land shorter than it can take off. I have found if I need to descend faster, either slow down or slip with full flaps. A-models can do it safely, they don't have the restriction.

And a B-model, with half or 3/4th's flaps deployed, can slip even better than any other 170 model with full flaps deployed.

[Indopilot]

My story of slipping with flaps comes from when I was on my check-ride for my Private. The examiner requested a full flap slip to landing in our 171.I reponded that I couldn't comply since full flap slips were a no-no. But being a little high I put it in a slip. He immediatly asked " I thought you couldn't slip with full flaps?" I said I can't and put the barn doors to the 40 degree position. I guess he was used to the 30 degree flaps on the newer 172's. Still managed to pass.

[GAHorn]

Glad you weren't hurt.

[flyguy]

What part of "avoid" is not violated by a deliberate slip?

OHHHH BOYYYY HYEAR IS GAY HORN POSTULATING ON WHETHER SLIPPIN BEIN AVOIDED OR NOT DONE OR NOT IS LEEGAL

SUM OTHER THRED U WAS TRYIN TO TELL ME THAT SUMBODIE CAN FLY ROUN INNA CLOUDS JUS A CAUSE THEY GOT LICEENCE TU AND ITSA OK.
WAL THAT MITA NOT BEEN EGGZACT WHATCHA SED!

NOW THE TRUE REESON TU NOT DU THIS FLAPPY/SLIPPY THANG IS THE SAME REESON TO NEVER EXCEED THE NEVER EXCEED SPEED OR EXTEND FULL FLAPS INTO THE CRUISE AIRSTREAM,WHICH IS AVOINDING BENT-UP SHEETMETAL. THIS PLANES REACTION TO THE "BLANKED OUT" TAIL FEATHERS MAKES IT A FALLING ITEM INSTEAD OF A FLYING ONE WHICH CAN, IF RECOVERED BEFORE HITTING THE GROUND, CAUSEE UNUSUAL STRESSES ON THE AIRFRAME.

MILES HAS IT RITE ( ) DON'T EVER TRY IT AT LOW ALTITUDE OR YOU "MAY" BE SORRY. I FLEW MY 170, THE 52 B MODEL, FOR YEARS BEFORE THE "SLIP BOOGY MAN" JUMPED IN MY LAP. I HAD DONE THE FULL FLAP SLIPS RIGHT AND LEFT GETING IN AND OUT OF SHORT LITTLE FIELDS AND HAD NEVER HAD THE "BAD" BREAK TILL ONE DAY HERE AT 3R4 ON APPROACH TO THE GRASS STRIP 01 . WE WERE FULLY LOADED TO FLY OUT TO REKLAW FOR THE WEEKEND. COMING IN A LITTLE HIGH, I INITIATED A FULL FLAP LEFT SLIP. ABOUT 10 SECONDS INTO THE MANUVER THE PITCH WENT FROM 30* TO STRAIGHT DOWN! MY FIRST RREACTION WAS TO BLAST FULL THROTTLE AND DUMP SOME FLAP. LIKE MILES I HAD JUST ENOUGH FORWARD SPEED TO FLARE INTO GROUND EFFECT AND TOUCHED DOWN WITH A LITTLE MORE FORCE THAN USUAL.I HAD HEARD ABOUT THE PHENOM BUT HAD NEVER HAD THE FULL EFFECT OF THE EXPERIENCE. NEEDLESS TO SAY I WON'T EVER HAVE THE CHANCE TO DO IT AGAIN!!!

AS FER WHICH TAIL DRAGGER IS BEST "52s FOREVER!!!
WE GOT THE BEST OF THE EARLY MODEL FORWARD VIEW,
THE BIG FLAPS AN DIHEDRAL WINGS.
THE GEAR LEGS THAT DO A WONDERFUL JOB
AND WITH CLEVELANDS WE CAN STOP REEL GOOD.

AN HEY STEVE C SOMETIMES I CHANGE DREKTIONS EVEN IF I DOANT NO WHICH DREKTION IMA GOIN