Am I getting ripped off?

[CF-HEW]

Hi there,
I just received a bill for a few services performed on my 170 this week. They seem to have spent a lot of time on just a few items. I had most of the annual done in February but before I pick up the plane for the float season they drain the 2F fluid, add W100+ oil and Av Blend, Install the battery and ELT, do a run-up and certify the books. This isn't the first annual they do so I wouldn't expect it to take hours to do the books. Does anyone have a ballpark idea of how long it should take to change oil and add the ELT and battery? I'm thinking 3 hours at 68$/hr is a little much considering it was probably done by his apprentice except for the books.
In February they charged me 29 hours for the annual plus changing a flap cable and an aileron cable and replaced 4 mounts (H3006-1).
32 hours labour seems like a bit much and I think he may be including his lunch breaks and then some in his time but what do I know, I'm not an AME so maybe he is honest. How do I know for sure?

Also I want to get the aircraft painted next winter and he quoted me about $20000 because he needs to etch it first. There is very little stripping to do as it is mostly bare aluminum as you can see on Doug's calendar (June '08). (I know I should keep it polished but I'm worried about corrosion being on the water and all.) Is $20000 really the going rate for a good etch + paint job?

[voorheesh]

Your question is a bit confusing. You first ask about an oil/battery/elt change that happened this week. Then you mention an annual in february that involved 29 hours and included control cable work. Then you mention 32 hours. Did this include putting floats on? Could you be exact on how these hours were billed, what was accomplished and there will surely be some opinions given. Regarding your paint job, is that 20K US or Canada? Have a great flying season!

[GAHorn]

I understand the 32 hours math, and it does not seem excessive at all. Nor does the 3 hours. It sounds very expensive to have it painted by him, however. "Etching" is part of the process of paint preparation and should cost almost nothing in addition to regular paint. It's probably just an acid-stripper (phosphoric and alodine treatment.)
I'd get it painted (or at least bid) elsewhere.

[jrenwick]

Hi Alex,

That is one GORGEOUS calendar photo!!!! How could you even think of painting that beautiful airplane!!!!
I've got a sweet pair of Edo 1400s on my J3 (first flight of the season yesterday!) and I know that feeling of being just on the cusp of the step on smooth water. I don't want everyone in the world to know this, but I think it's almost better than sex!

I'm not a licensed mechanic, but I'm a hands-on sort of pilot, and I like to find IAs who will let me do most of the work myself. One of them even says he likes a customer like that, because they appreciate how much time a job can take. Because these jobs always take longer than you think, even for experienced mechanics.

The hours you're being charged for don't seem out of line to me, and $68/hour seems about par. Oil changes take longer if you have to remove, inspect and clean the stock screen on an O-300. They'll be quicker if you have a fliter and a quick-drain on the sump. Whenever I remove or replace the battery, I spend some time cleaning, inspecting, painting or corrosion-proofing the battery case, because that's a problem area. Not sure what they did to the ELT, but if they replaced the battery they would have to complete and log an ELT test, in the US at least. Certifying the logs would involve searching an AD database for the aircraft, engine, and all the accessories you have installed, printing the results, and reviewing them for anything that might need to be done. 3 hours doesn't seem like too much for all that.

Replacing aileron and flap cables is beyond anything in my experience on a 170, and from what I've seen by looking around in my airplane, it looks like a fairly big job. I would expect a thorough annual to take a couple of days' work, and if you're being billed for under 4 days for an annual, engine mounts, and the cables, I personally wouldn't question it. You can't really estimate aircraft work the same as automotive -- aircraft aren't anything like cars and trucks, and that includes the time it takes to do "simple" repairs and maintenance.

How do you know for sure? You get physically involved, and do as much of the work as you can for yourself. When I take my 170 to an IA for an annual, I'll fly it there with all the interior panels removed. Once I get there, I'll remove the cowling and all the exterior inspection plates and fairings myself, and replace them after the IA has inspected. That way, I can usually get the annual done in one day of the IA's time, two days of my time. The jobs I do are all authorized for the owner/pilot to do under FAR part 43. I'm assuming similar rules apply in Canada.

[HA]

Hey Alex-

nope, you aren't getting ripped off, pretty decent numbers for a thorough annual. remember, the airplanes are 50-60 yrs old and speaking with my IA hat on, you cannot just let stuff slide because "it is probably fine", you have to look good because as things age they break in new and entertaining ways. enough about that.

$68/hr - pretty cheap. I still cannot understand why we charge $20+/hr LESS than my local Dodge dealer for labor at our shop. If I screw up an oil change on my pickup it isn't a felony, but it is on my airplane. And the guy signing the books for your airplane just took credit (blame) for eveything ever done to your airplane, no matter who did the work. how's that for a liability trail. he better have researched the AD's etc before he signed it off, just to cover his keester (and yours).

$20K for a paint job that doesn't need extensive stripping and bodywork? must be the "gold leaf special". I'm getting a C340 painted right now that will cost less than that by a few thousand. I'll give you his number (he's in ND, not sure how far we are from you) if you want, he paints all our stuff and does a top-notch job.

gosh, I sound grumpy tonight - sorry. I'm not, just don't have my happy bedside manner going right now I guess. Find and trust good quality shop/inspectors/mechanics and you'll get what you pay for.

[blueldr]

CF-HEW,
In a word, if this work was done in the Montreal area, you've been screwed by a bunch of French Canadians.

[c170b53]

Ah..... BL Alex may be French. I grew up in Ville de Lery outside of Montreal and with a last name of McIntosh (pronounced mack-IN-tosh in French) you wouldn't think I had a French backround either. Big question about the paint job, will the airplane be disassembled, painted and put back together? If its polished, then the prep time is cut at least in half. Did the shop do the books last time? If so then its a check for any new Ad's. which shouldn't take too long. I'm thinking the battery change was for the ELT, so it depends on the type and location and the oil change if it includes checking the screen. Prices will vary from shop to shop and will depend on how busy they are. Sometimes it pays to spend more on a reliable product delivered on time.

[4stripes]

Hi Alex!
The hourly charges are in the ballpark. I had my plane painted 10 years ago in Centralia ON for $12,000.
Stipping took some time longer than planned (stubborn paint around rivet heads). There was an antenna re-located and it's hole patched up.
Does your quote inlude stripping and painting the floats too?
$20,000 may be a realistic figure in todays prices. Especially withsome time figured in to clean up some corrosion.
Cheers Eric

[CF-HEW]

Thanks to everyone for the quick replies. I am now reassured that I was billed correctly. Doesn't hurt to ask those who have more experience on the subject

As for the paint it is only the aircraft and not the floats as they are like new. I will change over to wheels in October. There is a bit of corrosion to take care of under the wings and tail. I will look around. I was thinking of doing it locally in the Montreal area but am open to flying it somewhere warm for the winter.