How to find and A/P

[W.J.Langholz]

Need help in understanding.

How do you find and A/P that matches with your personality?
Seems like a majority of A/P's have a hard time with pilots that want to learn more about what they are doing and why.(I have been told I can be a little direct at times, couple that with a relentless quest for knowledge....and well now you got the picture)

I realise that and A/P has to sign off on the aircraft however it is still my aircraft and as a PIC, I am still the last one on a daily basis to say go or no go, so I would like to learn as much as possible about the airplane I fly.

Now I understand by posting this that I'm sure I have just sent shivers down a lot of A/P backs and you guys are about now say to yourself "Oh another one of those pilots"........... So here I am, bare A## naked so give me your best shot........

I have my first annual coming up in about 60 days and would like to find someone willing to work with me so give me some insight into the A/P world

Thanks
W.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Right on W. You've got it right. You are the owner, operator and final authority.

Having said that finding a compatible A&P is no different than finding and keeping other friends. Be yourself, be respectful of their time and experiance. Try to give more to the relationship than you receive.

Have an honest conversation with the A&P about what you would like to get out of the relationship. You'll probably get a good idea how things will go from there and whether or not you want to pursue the relationship further. Like all relationships they develop over time so don't expect a full A&P course overnight.

Good luck.

[Brad Brady]

Now I understand by posting this that I'm sure I have just sent shivers down a lot of A/P backs and you guys are about now say to yourself "Oh another one of those pilots"........... So here I am, bare A## naked so give me your best shot........

Thanks
W.

Hey Dubba,
I'm all about owner assisted annuals, you can't ask me a question that will rub me the wrong way. You NEED to know what I do and why I do it.....it just makes you a better owner, and eventually a better pilot (because of your understanding of the aircraft). Your not THAT far away....if the first of April, you want to spend a few days (assuming we don't find any thing major )in beautiful, Central IL. PM me with what you need/expect.......Brad

[N2865C]

W.J has it right..... For your annual you'll need an IA. What you are looking for is an owner assisted annual. The first one may take more time and cost more than just having an IA do it (the price will go up considerably if your a pain in the butt). After that you will be able to save some money and have a far better understanding of your plane by doing a lot of the grunt work yourself. Most A&P's and IA's now days don't know diddly about 170's. Ideally your looking for a guy that loves airplanes, not a guy with a job. They are also the ones most likely to do owner assisted annuals. Ask other owners and at the Antique fly-ins who they use. As you learn and gain the trust of your IA you will be able to do more of the work under his supervision. It's really rewarding and you can really cut your costs down. IMHO finding the right IA is the key to happiness in flying! I would try to develop a relationship with an IA first and then use an A&P he trusts and works with regularly if he is not going to do the work himself.

[voorheesh]

When you hire an IA to do an annual, you are getting an inspection of the airplane and its records that is spelled out in Part 43 and is pretty cut and dried. It is really helpful to find an IA who is familiar with older airplanes and likes them. It sounds like Brad would be worth a few hours of flight if you can't find a good IA in Mn. An experienced IA should explain the procedure to you in advance and give you a base cost for the inspection. This does not include any discrepancies that may turn up. You should have an agreement that you will be briefed on the discrepancies and will get an estimate for correcting them before the work is done. You might want to keep the option open to have another A&P correct any discrepancies or maybe you can help under supervision. An annual can be completed and signed off without all the discrepancies being corrected. The sign off should specify that a discrepancy list was provided to the owner. Then the airplane can not be flown until the discrepancies are corrected/signed off. The original IA does not have to reinspect it. (You can get a ferry permit from FAA if necessary to go to another airport to get things fixed). These actions/corrections must be entered into the maintenance records before the airplane is returned to service.
It is not unusual in a 60 year old airplane to find problems that are subject to a judgement call. Some IAs will insist that you break the bank and it is not uncommon to hear that they will not sign away their careers just to save you a few $. Sometimes you will hear that a quick repair might make it airworthy but it won't last etc. etc. This is where you can exercise your authority as the owner but you should really listen to that IA and make an informed decision. IAs who will not work with you on such decisions are ones you should stay away from. If you are told there is a problem, you have to deal with it. These old airplanes are going to need maintenance if they are going to last and it is a false economy to just fly them into ruin. Having said that, there is more than one way to correct problems and the owner should not hesitate to make that decision when necessary. Its your airplane and your money.
My glider club is going through hell right now with a new tow plane that had a fresh annual out of west Texas. The plane looks great from about ten feet but when you get into the records, it has an engine that does not belong on that airframe and to make matters worse has no documentation of its history. It is going to cost someone a lot of $ before it ever tows let alone flies. (This was a classic case of misplaced trust and failure to verify what a salesman claimed). But an experienced IA signed it off a month ago. I believe that IA is very popular at his airport and his signature is bought when necessary. I have not talked with him but I'll bet he "believes" in what he did and probably thinks that plane is just fine. I bring this up only because it is an example of the downside in this business and examples of this are everywhere. When you pick an IA, make sure he/she has the same standards as you. Hope this helps.

[W.J.Langholz]

Goodmorning

I'm a little surprised that I didn't get beat up too bad overnight. Thanks Brad for the offer,I may have to take you up on that if I don't find something up here. I have a young guy that what I would call "Mr By The Numbers" that works on a lot of newer Cessna's that looks at my plane like "Oh, look at the OLD Thing isn't it cute" I'm thinking, jeesh the plane is a couple years younger than I am ....wonder what he thinks of me. Then I have a retired service guy at our local airport that you never know what side of the bed he crawled out of, he can be very helpful at times and in a split second he could give a crapp about anybody or anything and if he doesn't want to work on your plane it may sit, just because, kind of a control thing I think.
So I will have to widen my search circle a little more. Kind of looking for that person that likes his job, is good at it, going to be around for awhile,realises he's not going to make enough money on just your annual to retire and move to the Cayman Islands, type of guy.
I had a scary thought.... I think I'm turning into "my Ol man"...becoming more cinical....just can't figure out why people don't want to work for a living any more. Everyone just wants to move right up to the top of the pay scale overnight.........I better get ready for work b/4 I get to grumpy.....thanks for the reply guys.
For the A/P IA's, the next guy that walks into your shop with a grin on his face and a firm hand shake,may be a guy like me,who works hard for his money,and just wants a good job for a fair price.

W.

[dunlaps3]

W ,
I was going to keep to myself , but when you wrote part about becoming " cinical " , I can relate to that .
I use to love everything about Aviation , but then 9-11 came and it keeps getting worse ( or maybe the fact I'm now over 50 and I keep getting worse ). Anyhow , I can offer to do your Annual if you fly here to BRD (only 152 miles from Lake Benton ). These days , I fly more than wrench , but I still do Annuals for my friends.
I have been an A&P for over 30 years , an IA for over 27 years and own 2 170's myself. I have always been a mechanic in Brainerd and have maintained 90 % of all aircraft in this area for 30 years. Well , at least until last year , then I needed something different and started flying Caravan for FedEx . Let me know if you are interested . Andrew

[W.J.Langholz]

W ,
I was going to keep to myself , but when you wrote part about becoming " cinical " , I can relate to that .
I use to love everything about Aviation , but then 9-11 came and it keeps getting worse ( or maybe the fact I'm now over 50 and I keep getting worse ). Anyhow , I can offer to do your Annual if you fly here to BRD (only 152 miles from Lake Benton ). These days , I fly more than wrench , but I still do Annuals for my friends.
I have been an A&P for over 30 years , an IA for over 27 years and own 2 170's myself. I have always been a mechanic in Brainerd and have maintained 90 % of all aircraft in this area for 30 years. Well , at least until last year , then I needed something different and started flying Caravan for FedEx . Let me know if you are interested . Andrew

Thanks Andrew for your offer. I will call you (# listed in the membership book) or send you a p.m.

I'm glad you responded and felt comfortable enough to make the offer. Thanks to everyone else for the words of advice also.
As the "Ol Seabiscuit" (form down there around Austin) says.."it's hard to put feelings into type words", but joining this club (good,bad or indifferent) has been the best thing I done for along time Thanks again

W.

[Brad Brady]

My glider club is going through hell right now with a new tow plane that had a fresh annual out of west Texas. The plane looks great from about ten feet but when you get into the records, it has an engine that does not belong on that airframe and to make matters worse has no documentation of its history. It is going to cost someone a lot of $ before it ever tows let alone flies. (This was a classic case of misplaced trust and failure to verify what a salesman claimed). But an experienced IA signed it off a month ago. I believe that IA is very popular at his airport and his signature is bought when necessary. I have not talked with him but I'll bet he "believes" in what he did and probably thinks that plane is just fine. I bring this up only because it is an example of the downside in this business and examples of this are everywhere. When you pick an IA, make sure he/she has the same standards as you. Hope this helps.

Voorheesh,
My mom and dad brought me up to "believe" nothing of what you hear and half of what you see. Sometimes, an IA will overlook issues.....not (to-kill-you) issues, but issues just the same. If he knows the Owner or Owners. Case in point....several years ago I started to work on a Cessna 140....after checking the paper work (first look), I told the owners (one of which was an influential lawyer in the area) That in my opinion, (which is just that, an opinion....in Lew of the facts) That the prop they had, probably shouldn't be on their aircraft......Not that it couldn't be used on that aircraft with that engine....it's just the paper work wasn't right.....I singed it off for five years.....when they decided to sell it.....I made them buy the STC for that engine-airframe combo (my signature,and my livelihood) (Really I should have made them do it earlier).......Brad

[voorheesh]

Brad,
I know what you mean. I have not flown it, but I am told our tow plane flies just fine (not a 170 btw). The engine and prop have no basis for approval to be on the airplane. I am sure we could find a DER who could bless the installation for a few $. The engine itself was represented as overhauled but there are no records what so ever of an overhaul or anything else. The logbook entry covering installation of the engine refers to a diferent model engine than the one installed. The engine model on the airplane has several ADs and you can not determine whether or not those ADs apply because you do not know what parts are in the engine. I would want to pull the engine and find out what is in it before I would go fly it, but those are my standards. Some of my friends would be comfortable to fly this airplane in its current condition and fault the "system" or the "paperwork". My point about IAs is that they should be the gatekeepers and catch this stuff before people lose money, or worse. The club should have checked all this out before we bought it. George's advice that you get an IA that you know and trust to do an annual before you buy an airplane would have prevented this. I was aware that the club was buying it but I did not raise any question because I did not want to insult the board members who were in charge of the deal. Obviously I and other members should have said something and our lack of involvement is also part of the problem. I hear what you are saying and I know this happens alot in GA. It is a waste of time to criticize and better to learn from our mistakes.

[GAHorn]

....
How do you find and A/P that matches with your personality?... W.

In your case, Dubya .... forgittaboutit!

voorheesh's glider-club problem reminds me of the C-206 I bought in 1989. I bought it at a specified price subject to an annual inspection performed by MY IA. The seller agreed.

During the inspection it was discovered that an IO-520-D engine was installed. That 206 was only approved for an IO-520-A. The discovery sent a shiver up the spine of the IA that had been signing off on that airplane's annuals for the last five years. The installed engine/prop was a combination off of a C-185... not a 206.

This forced the seller (and/or his IA who'd been doing the annuals for him) to buy me a new McCauley prop and appropriate governor, and my IA converted the -D to a -A engine via a TCM Service Bulletin (re-set the max rpm on the governor and re-set the fuel flows) which only required about two hours adjustments.

I got a new prop and governor, and the seller (or his mechanic) paid over $7-Grand (to my accrued benefit) to perfect that sale. (Otherwise I'd have brought that previous inspector's failure to the attention of the local FSDO, or the seller would have in order to defend himself against our letter-of-intent to sell/purchase.)

Another reason to perform an ANNUAL inspection in lieu of a "pre-buy" inspection.

[W.J.Langholz]

....
How do you find and A/P that matches with your personality?... W.

In your case, Dubya .... forgittaboutit!

Carefull Ol Seabiscuit....I see they are advertising a "lot" on one of the airparks in Spicewood for only 20k.......just might buy it, park a camper there, get a couple coonhounds and a case of Bud, tell everyone I'm your bother in law, and come visiting

[GAHorn]

....
How do you find and A/P that matches with your personality?... W.

In your case, Dubya .... forgittaboutit!

Carefull Ol Seabiscuit....I see they are advertising a "lot" on one of the airparks in Spicewood for only 20k.......just might buy it, park a camper there, get a couple coonhounds and a case of Bud, tell everyone I'm your bother in law, and come visiting

That's be JUST FINE WITH ME! COME ON DOWN!

(Just to clarify things... I live on a ranch, not an airpark. That airpark is several miles to the East of me, ....DOWN-river. I flush twice because they need the water.)

[W.J.Langholz]

[
(Just to clarify things...

I live on a ranch, not an airpark

.

Spoken like a true "Texan".........everything over 5 acres in Texas is a "ranch"

[GAHorn]

[
(Just to clarify things...

I live on a ranch, not an airpark

.

Spoken like a true "Texan".........everything over 5 acres in Texas is a "ranch"

Nope. That's what we tell Yankees who come down here to buy a "ranch house".

However, I do live on a smaller ranch by true Texas standards..... 1540 acres along 2 miles of shoreline on Lake Travis. The googlemap below shows the grass runway 10/28 (3400' x 135') and the narrow paved 03/21 (4200' x 150' but only 25' width is paved). Our house and hangar are in the middle, of the grass rwy on the North side, just above the road "Y". If you zoom in you can see my old Baron out front, since sold. The other bldgs. are mostly old, empty ranch bldgs. (junk, according to Jamie.) The house at the NE end of the long rwy is vacant, but used to belong to the previous ranch owner we purchased from. It's hangar is used for storage. That pond to the SE of our house is Yett Pond, an old spring-fed buffalo wallow, (looks like an upside-down @ ...named after one of the early slave-owner settlers, Samuel Yett, M.D.) one of the earliest mapped landmarks in Texas, first illustrated on a hand-drawn map in the early 1800's by a cartographer who wrote poetry in the margins of the official maps kept in the Republic of Texas Land Office. The cartographer, who was eventually better known for his poetry, went by the name "O. Henry."

http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&ll= ... 6&t=h&z=15