Training Insurance

[dacker]

I was exploring insurance to cover giving tailwheel endorsements in my 170, non-solo training only. The best that my agent came up with was using my existing policy but adding coverage to other pilots on an individual basis (rouighly around $200 per pilot depending on their experience and certificates). I could only cover two pilots at a time. Has anyone else done this and if so what sort of coverage did you use and how much. Like I mentioned, this is for non-rental, non-solo training. Any thoughts?
David

[blueldr]

Be a real Sport! Go naked!

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

David, it's been a while but when I checked training insurance was prohibitive. I have added pilots who have had a tail wheel endorsement but little to no experience in my Cub to my insurance and they payed the difference in the premium. In one case the difference was about $400 for the year and the named pilot was not limited to dual after initial training hours. This was a great deal for the pilot who had no problem paying because he had flying privileges when ever he wanted after the initial training.

The current person named on my Cub policy had no time in type but a tail wheel endorsement. Initially we were told $800 a year to add him which again was fine because of the deal he and I struck. Funny thing though 3 months later when we actually add him to the policy the price changed to just $100 difference a year. Again this is for full coverage including solo after he had 5 hours of dual. He was very happy.

From what I understand from my insurance broker there is no problem adding people as I have and even removing them but there is a limit of the total number of people at one time usually 4 pilots total. Of course I'll bet if you added and removed people on a regular bases the insurance company might not be happy and change the rules. In addition from personal experience it gets to be a nightmare trying to figure out what named pilots are responsible for what part of the bill.

[GAHorn]

Since as the instructor you are the PIC, and since the other pilot will never solo your airplane...why even mention it to your insurance company? If you ever have an accident, you will be the responsible party and the pilot at fault (if determined to be pilot error.)

[jrenwick]

I've had this conversation with my insurer, AVEMCO. (Insurance to give primary instruction in my own airplane is a whole different thing from what I've got, and they couldn't quote it for me.) As a CFI, if I'm in the right seat with someone and there's an accident resulting in a claim, there would be a presumption that I was giving dual instruction. That would probably void the policy in some way, and I'm not sure what, if anything, might be covered. Probably just liability. I didn't go into it with them. The important thing seems to be for me to stay out of the right seat unless I'm solo or giving instruction in the owner's aircraft.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

John I have had the same conversations with my insurance agent. I rarely fly from the right seat of my 170 or the front seat in my Cub for this reason. The exceptions being on the rare occasion the person riding with me and sitting in the normal pilots position already meets my open pilot clause.

George I'm a bit surprised at your comments. Sure as the PIC you would be held responsible and when the insurance company finds you were not in the normal PIC position but a non rated person was, guess what they are going to try to try and prove and then void your insurance coverage.

[Brad Brady]

John I have had the same conversations with my insurance agent. I rarely fly from the right seat of my 170 or the front seat in my Cub for this reason. The exceptions being on the rare occasion the person riding with me and sitting in the normal pilots position already meets my open pilot clause.

George I'm a bit surprised at your comments. Sure as the PIC you would be held responsible and when the insurance company finds you were not in the normal PIC position but a non rated person was, guess what they are going to try to try and prove and then void your insurance coverage.

Bruce,
Legally, I don't think there is a (normal) PIC position......It depends on where you are comfortable.......I've seen to many articles, where the (private), only, pilot flies his aircraft from the right seat....Quite honestly I'm more comfortable in the right seat, no matter when....althow...Being six two.....the front seat of a cub isn't for me ......Brad

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Your right legally either seat is OK for the PIC. But there is a normal PIC or solo seat in each aircraft and a CFI sitting in another seat with a unrated person in the other pilot seat raises questions as to whether training was taking place. The issue isn't legality, it is whether you were operating outside your insurance coverage. I think the question of training would be asked if a claim was made.

[GAHorn]

EVERY flight is a training flight.

There are several instances where a pilot occupying a front seat in an airplane, was held responsible when an accident occurred... despite the fact the individual had no duties as a pilot for that flight. I seem to recall an event about 10 years ago where an unqualified private pilot was held jointly responsible because the King Air driver in the left seat failed to put the gear down. FAA and legal all held the passenger as accountable as the PIC... holding that despite the fact he was unqualified in a King Air and despite the fact he was actually only a passenger who happened to possess a pilot certificate... he SHOULD have known the gear was not down and he SHOULD have performed the duties of a certificated pilot and brought it to the attention of the PIC.

Moral: Sit in the back. It's safer.

Question: If I am a CFI and a non-rated person is in the right seat.... am I providing flight training when I explain things as they happen thru the flight? What if the right seater is a pilot who normally flys from the right seat at his workplace? And what if I let him operate the radio? Insurance companies have a hard time denying coverage if the owner/pilot is in either front seat. Charging a FEE for the experience is probably the deciding factor.

[jrenwick]

George,

All I was saying is that if AVEMCO finds me in the right seat with a non-CFI in the left seat, they may presume I was giving instruction. I didn't try to argue the fine points with them. I'd just like to be assured my policy is in force when I fly, so I'm going to avoid that situation. Whether that makes sense or not is their call, I think.

John

[Brad Brady]

EVERY flight is a training flight.

There are several instances where a pilot occupying a front seat in an airplane, was held responsible when an accident occurred... despite the fact the individual had no duties as a pilot for that flight. I seem to recall an event about 10 years ago where an unqualified private pilot was held jointly responsible because the King Air driver in the left seat failed to put the gear down. FAA and legal all held the passenger as accountable as the PIC... holding that despite the fact he was unqualified in a King Air and despite the fact he was actually only a passenger who happened to possess a pilot certificate... he SHOULD have known the gear was not down and he SHOULD have performed the duties of a certificated pilot and brought it to the attention of the PIC.

Moral: Sit in the back. It's safer.

Question: If I am a CFI and a non-rated person is in the right seat.... am I providing flight training when I explain things as they happen thru the flight? What if the right seater is a pilot who normally flys from the right seat at his workplace? And what if I let him operate the radio? Insurance companies have a hard time denying coverage if the owner/pilot is in either front seat. Charging a FEE for the experience is probably the deciding factor.

George,
Good scenario....But I have heard, that if you are in the rear seat of a Boeing 737 and have more type time, than the pilot......a good lawyer can make you PIC ....Go figure...Brad

[W.J.Langholz]

Just tell them you grew up in England, Ol Chap

[GAHorn]

...All I was saying is that if AVEMCO finds me in the right seat with a non-CFI in the left seat, they may presume I was giving instruction. .... Whether that makes sense or not is their call, I think. John

What if you have a CFI in the left seat? Doesn't that make it even MORE evident you were either giving or receiving instruction? In any case... I'd NEVER leave it up to the ins. co. to "make the call". I pay them to insure my airplane when I'm flying it as PIC or when anyone else is flying it and meets the open pilot warranty. The purpose of the flight has little to do with their obligation. It's insured for "business and pleasure" and instructing is pleasure.

[dacker]

Well, I was considering doing this for pay. As there are only a couple of guys that want the endorsement and they are both commercial pilots, then I would have to charge them for the extra coverage. I would like to exercise my CFI priviledges and giving tailwheel endorsements would be a nice niche. I am not too keen on going naked, or lying about it after the fact... I learned back when I was a kid that I never get away with anything. This is a good discussion, insurance coverage has just about made it impossible to give flight instruction these days.
David

[GAHorn]

I'm not advocating "lying" about anything. In my own situation I don't charge for flight instruction in my airplane. In fact, I don't ordinarily instruct at all in my airplane. (I have allowed trusted friends to have the stick, and I've coached them in handling the airplane. When the right -seater course was being developed for the GLS convention, Bob and I went flying so he could gain the necessary insights to make meaningful input to the attendees of the course. And another friend, Lee, who'd never been in a 170, was given the left seat and I gave him the equivalent of a checkout, but I never intended to turn him loose in my airplane and he'd not likely qualify under my open pilot warranty. I also did not charge for that....it was just a fun day with two buddies out flying the airplane. I don't believe that is an abuse of my stated "personal business and pleasure" use of the airplane.

I've not approached my underwriter about it, but it doesn't seem to be too crazy to ask them how in the heck do they expect a pilot to meet the open pilot warranty if instruction isn't allowed in the airplane? Since a qualified owner/pilot will be PIC, I just don't see how they could object.

Certainly, putting the airplane to "work" as a learning airplane for "students" IS a horse of a different color, tho', and the underwriter would need to be advised of the change in use.