New Member / 170 Owner

[oz502man]

Hello everybody,

I posted on here some time back looking for some info. I mentioned that I had my eye on a C170A and if work picked up I would love to buy it and if I did I would join the association. Well things have been quite busy work wise and I was able to purchase the 170 and as promised I have paid up my membership with the Association.I have spent every spare minute over the last few months trolling through this forum for info on buying and operating a C170 (and had a few chuckles along the way). I have to say that the collective knowledge and experience on this forum is astounding and a big thank you to everyone who has contributed!!

The airplane I bought is a beautiful old girl. She's a 1951 model with only about 2700TT and the engine and prop have both only done about 170 SOH. I am an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer by trade and armed with the info from this forum I did the pre purchase myself. Structurally the airframe is in exceptionally good condition with very little corrosion. She suffered a heavy landing some time back and the sub floor area including leg boxes have been repaired to a very high standard including everything being primed and is still immaculate. The paint and interior need attention but will do for now as do the upper cowls.

I fly ag planes these days and have logged over 4000hrs, 90% in taildraggers (over 2500 hrs in the Air Tractor 502B). Work has kept me busy, especially in the last few months having flown nearly 1000hrs in the last 365 days spraying cotton, wheat, barley, weeds, fungicide and seeding, baiting and apreading fertiliser. I had the 170 delivered last weekend but haven't had much time to enjoy her having flown only 1 hour in her. I was vey impressed how quick she got off the ground, but found the acceleration and climbout a bit lacking. That might just be because she has 605HP less than I am used too, and it was a terrible day for flying. Once in the cruise I found her a very relaxing plane to fly. The AT502 is an incredible work horse but its a plane you really have to fly. The 170, even with three big fellows, half fuel, hot(37'C), windy(15kt+) and turbulent, just wanted to sit there and cruise with no real effort from me. I am really looking forward to getting to know my 170 as well as I know the 502 I fly.

I will post some pictures when I get more time.

Noel Casey

[AR Dave]

Look forward to seeing pictures from down under.
Be careful not to over estimate the 170's pay load.
Good to have you in the club!

[jlwild]

Congratulations on your purchase Noel. Sounds like you have a great plane. I also have found the forum a great place to find information. Now that you are a member, don't forget you have access to the "Members Only" section. In there you will find great articles in the Quarterly News that will also be a help to you.

Also, If you ever have a chance to come to the USA, email me or call me. I will be happy to introduce you to other wonderful members and even introduce you to George

If you need a place to lay over, we even have a spare bedroon/bath available.

Hummmmmm......wouldn't it be great to hold one of the Annual Conventions in Australia

Jim Wildharber

[GAHorn]

Look forward to seeing pictures from down under....

YES! ...and if you can.... get a few from up above, too!

What radios are typically installed in ships down under? (I am especially curious if "Automatic Direction Finders" and L.F. and/or H.F. equipment is common in small aircraft there.

Where, exactly, are you based and work? (Google-Earth?)

And WELCOME!

- George

[oz502man]

Thank you George, Jim and Dave,

I will attempt to post some photos...




George as you can see here I only have an Icom A200 vhf and Narco transponder. The transponder is overdue for calibration so at the moment is considered inop. This means flight OCTA only until the AD is carried out. No big deal really, since completing my CPL in 2000, I have been into controlled airspace only a handful of times. Our regs require a navaid for NVFR so I will be on the lookout for a second hand ADF. HF's are used here but mostly in more remote areas than where I am. The airplane is based at my work which is on a private airstrip NW of YMOR (Moree, NSW). 29° 18.424'S 149° 41.835'E



Here is a pic of the elevator lock I made from 5/16 rod. It slips over the bellcrank and the other end slides over the eye bolt. It works surprisingly well and because the elevator is not hard up against either stop, any movement is not going to damage stops. Once in place the chain or rope stop it from sliding out, otherwise I use a spring clip through he eyebolt. I know you guys like the seatbelt through the yoke but when I was an apprentice I had it drilled into me how bad that was ( a piper thing, I believe an AD came out at one point regarding piper control yokes put under too much stress from the downward force of the seatbelt) I guess it must have stuck with me because even though I know you guys have doing it for years without problems, it just felt wrong to me.



Where have I seen this before????




I have seen a similar scheme in pictures of other 170's but I don't think it represents the original 'A' model scheme. Maybe someone could shed some light on this. I would like repaint her in the (almost) original scheme one day. I say almost because polished is not an option for me.




.....My 'office'




It sure beats working for a living

[GAHorn]

Thank you George, Jim and Dave,

I will attempt to post some photos...

A-HA! NOW I understand where some of the guys got the idea to install their yokes UPSIDE-DOWN.... They've seen how they do it in the land DOWN-UNDER! (You'll have to invert those when you fly north of the equator.)

[flyguy]

A-HA! NOW I understand where some of the guys got the idea to install their yokes UPSIDE-DOWN.... They've seen how they do it in the land DOWN-UNDER! (You'll have to invert those when you fly north of the equator.)

NA NA GAY HORN - - IT AINT THU YOKES UPSIDE DOWN ITS THU WINGS N WHEELS. SEE IF URE STRANDIN IN KANSAS THEM GUYS IN JAWPAN (SUMWHAR) IS UPSIDE DOUN TU U SO MR OZ502MAN HAS A WING/WHEEL PROBLEM AN NOT A YOQUE PROLEM!

[GAHorn]

...


Here is a pic of the elevator lock I made from 5/16 rod. It slips over the bellcrank and the other end slides over the eye bolt. It works surprisingly well and because the elevator is not hard up against either stop, any movement is not going to damage stops. Once in place the chain or rope stop it from sliding out, otherwise I use a spring clip through he eyebolt. ...

I just re-read this post and it occurred to me to mention something regarding control-locks.
Anytime a control surface is "locked" at or near it's pivot-point (hinge) ...there is a serious danger of causing severe damage to the control surface. This is due to the extreme forces that are capable of being exerted via the long "arm" of the control surface. IN other words....if a gust of wind or an unknowlegeable person should come along and move that control surface...the amount of force applied at the point of the pivot-point/hinge is very great! (In fact , this is what causes so much damage to rudders that have gust-locks installed at their upper ends at the counter-balance area...and it is what gives me so much heartburn in the illustration contained in the SRAM book the association published/sold for so long. They illustrate a rudder being "locked" (jammed is more accurate description) by a block being placed between the rudder-stops at the rudder bellcrank at the tail! This is particularly hazardous and capable of causing serious damage.)

I think a similar possibility exists with the rod attached at the elevator bell-crank, Ozzie. Be careful with that.

Said another way: If the purpose of a control-lock is to prevent damage to a control surface and it's stops due to a gust of wind or other un-wannted movement.....Then why would a system which would cause increased damage to that system be preferable over one which would be less-likely to cause damage?
Hint: While the seat-belt-thru-the-yoke does indeed allow any sudden gusts to pass the energy to the entire control-cable-system of the particular control surface.... I believe that activity also helps absorb/diffuse the unwanted energy better with much less likelihood of serious damage.

[blueldr]

Looks to me that this elevator control lock would be far too easy to miss on a walk around preflight.

[oz502man]

Blueldr,

by blueldr » Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:51 am

Looks to me that this elevator control lock would be far too easy to miss on a walk around preflight.

Since that photo was taken I have painted that lock bright yelllow (didn't have any red paint). It really stands out against the aircraft paint. The fact that it slides over the eye bolt means you practically have to touch it when you untie the plane. Even then if you managed to miss it, you would notice the yoke pulled back once you got in the plane and then there is the 'controls full and free' check, so I am quite happy that it won't get left on. Having said that, i'm sure it has been done before.

George,

by gahorn » Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:51 am

oz502man wrote:
...


Here is a pic of the elevator lock I made from 5/16 rod. It slips over the bellcrank and the other end slides over the eye bolt. It works surprisingly well and because the elevator is not hard up against either stop, any movement is not going to damage stops. Once in place the chain or rope stop it from sliding out, otherwise I use a spring clip through he eyebolt. ...


I just re-read this post and it occurred to me to mention something regarding control-locks.
Anytime a control surface is "locked" at or near it's pivot-point (hinge) ...there is a serious danger of causing severe damage to the control surface. This is due to the extreme forces that are capable of being exerted via the long "arm" of the control surface. IN other words....if a gust of wind or an unknowlegeable person should come along and move that control surface...the amount of force applied at the point of the pivot-point/hinge is very great! (In fact , this is what causes so much damage to rudders that have gust-locks installed at their upper ends at the counter-balance area...and it is what gives me so much heartburn in the illustration contained in the SRAM book the association published/sold for so long. They illustrate a rudder being "locked" (jammed is more accurate description) by a block being placed between the rudder-stops at the rudder bellcrank at the tail! This is particularly hazardous and capable of causing serious damage.)

I think a similar possibility exists with the rod attached at the elevator bell-crank, Ozzie. Be careful with that.

Said another way: If the purpose of a control-lock is to prevent damage to a control surface and it's stops due to a gust of wind or other un-wannted movement.....Then why would a system which would cause increased damage to that system be preferable over one which would be less-likely to cause damage?
Hint: While the seat-belt-thru-the-yoke does indeed allow any sudden gusts to pass the energy to the entire control-cable-system of the particular control surface.... I believe that activity also helps absorb/diffuse the unwanted energy better with much less likelihood of serious damage.

I respectfully disagree. Given that the bellcrank/torque tube is rated to deflect the elevator full travel up to Va (can't think of the exact speed at the moment, but let's say around 100kts) not that you would want to try that, I am sure that it will handle anything that blows up around here. When you think about it by locking the control yoke you are still holding the elevator in place through that same bellcrank, which is transferring the loads from the control surface to the yoke. I do agree with you however that the 'system' would absorb some of the shock loads. Does this shock loading put excess strain on some of the pullies/brackets? I don't know. I don't think that my elevator lock compares to locking the rudder between the counter balance and the fin. By locking the bellcrank the loads are being transferred from the skins through every rib to the torque tube(no different to flying really). When locking the rudder at the counter balance the load from the entire rudder is being transferred through one rib and ultimately a handful of rivets to the spar. I guess we could argue the pros and cons of each method but at the end of the day they both seem to work just fine.

Just thought I'd add my perspective.

Regards,

Noel Casey

[GAHorn]

...I respectfully disagree. Given that the bellcrank/torque tube is rated to deflect the elevator full travel up to Va (can't think of the exact speed at the moment, but let's say around 100kts) not that you would want to try that, I am sure that it will handle anything that blows up around here. When you think about it by locking the control yoke you are still holding the elevator in place through that same bellcrank, which is transferring the loads from the control surface to the yoke. I do agree with you however that the 'system' would absorb some of the shock loads. Does this shock loading put excess strain on some of the pullies/brackets? I don't know. I don't think that my elevator lock compares to locking the rudder between the counter balance and the fin. By locking the bellcrank the loads are being transferred from the skins through every rib to the torque tube(no different to flying really). When locking the rudder at the counter balance the load from the entire rudder is being transferred through one rib and ultimately a handful of rivets to the spar. I guess we could argue the pros and cons of each method but at the end of the day they both seem to work just fine.

Just thought I'd add my perspective.

Regards,

Noel Casey

Good discussion!
Respectful disagreement is my attitude as well. Here's why:
Reason ONE:
When you are flying along at 115 mph (Va) and manipulate the elevators thru the control system to it's stops, as you suggest.... does NOT place the same stress upon the hinge-areas. The reason is because your strength of application is greatly reduced due to the resistance of relative wind. (Imagine the wind resisting your moving the controls.)
That is quite different stress than a line-man or passerby placing his hand or arm against your elevator and giving a heave-ho.....or a helicopter coming into a landing at the adjacent tie-down spot.
Try this experiment: Open a front door to your house by using your fingers placed only at/near the hinge. (In other words, unlatch the door so it may swing freely, ...then slipping your fingers between the door and the door-jamb near the hinges, attempt to open the door against a strong wind. You will find greater effort required than you have available with your hands/fingers. Clearly you cannot hurt things with that mechanical disadvantage.
Now, leaving your fingers between the hinge-edge of the door, ask your little, petite wife to come grasp the door with her dainty hand and close it upon your fingers.
Similarly, the mechanical advantage of operating the elevator thru the short bellcrank is not the same as operating the hinges/bellcrank thru the mechanical advantage of the entire chord of the elevator.

Reason TWO: The example of a pilot exerting effort to move an elevator against a wind involves movement. The reaction of the elevator to the pilot's input avoids damage.
But....the example of a control surface which is moved against that immoveable object (the rigid control-lock) is a matter of something MUST give-way when the force is applied. Much greater force is applied against that chord-wide elevator than that which is applied thru the control cable/push-rod system.

[Blue4]

At the risk of pouring gas on this particular fire:

What IS a good (or the best) way to immobilize the elevator and rudder? If there are strong opinions, there surely are good methods.

-S

[jrenwick]

....Good discussion!
Respectful disagreement is my attitude as well. Here's why:....

So, just to summarize: while Noel seems to be right that a wind coming from in front of the airplane wouldn't likely stress the locked elevator more than abrupt control movement while flying at less than Va, George is saying that on the ground there are bigger, more dangerous forces potentially available -- such as winds from behind, turbulence from nearby aircraft, and (especially) people pushing on the wrong things.

[GAHorn]

At the risk of pouring gas on this particular fire:

What IS a good (or the best) way to immobilize the elevator and rudder? If there are strong opinions, there surely are good methods.

-S

I use the seat-belt thru the yoke for elevator/ailerons, and a rope with hooks on the ends (such as in the picture above) for the rudder. Cessna originally (and at least one after-market co. these days) offered a contraption that had mounting hardware on the floor in front of the pilot's seat and which used a large scissors-type paraphrenalia to hold the rudder pedals staionary while clamped simulaneously to the yoke for the elev/ailerons. I can't figure out why anyone would want such a complicated Rube-Goldberg device...or why they'd want to carry the additional-weight around all the time...or where to store it when not in use...or fuss with the matter at tie-down time. The only time I've seen one the owner said he almost never used it, so I figure he'd have been better off to use a seat-belt and a rope.

The "York" system works on a similar principal without the floor-mounting hardware, but it still presents the weight/convenience issue, not to mention the disparity of cost when compared to a seat-belt and a rope. $150.oo from Spruce.

[jrenwick]

To add to what George just said: when I use seatbelts to secure elevator and ailerons, I use both seat belts -- one through each yoke, so that the ailerons are held in a neutral position (yokes level, IOW). I learned to do this after seeing the beginnings of a bird's nest in the lightening holes under the "up" aileron.