Seriously tho',...that's an excellent answer you gave. I think I'll plagarize it from time to time, if that's ok.
freedom of flight
Moderators: GAHorn, Karl Towle, Bruce Fenstermacher
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GAHorn
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doug8082a
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Good one, Eric! I think I'll use that if you don't mind.zero.one.victor wrote:Speaking of freedom & free flight, it amazes me how many people are shocked when they discover that (gasp!) our local airport does not have a control tower! "But who gives you permission to land?",they ask. I usually reply with a question of my own,like "who gives you permission to turn left at an intersection?".
Eric
Russ,
I don't think you "started something", I think you just gave us the opportunity to vent over something that's been bugging a lot of us for some time.
Even though we get TFRs up here in the Northeast, we've got nuthin' on the folks in TX or DC. I really feel for you guys.
Doug
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N1478D
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. . . don't lawyers eventually turn in to politicians . . . Maybe a convention at DC of beautiful 170's, 140's, 190's, etc with all of us asking the question "you guys think these beautiful birds are dangerous?"
When the Crawford Ranch is active it impacts alot of airports. ATC has been very helpful so far and it has not been an issue to get a descreet code and fly thru the airspace. Granted, it would be a LOT better without all of the TFR's, but at least the people here we have to work with have made it as easy as they can on us. A couple of months ago I asked permission to circle downtown Dallas so a passenger could enjoy the view and ATC said it was wonderful to finally be allowed to grant permission to do that type of activity. On my daily commute over Love field and the need to get Class B clearance there hasn't been a difference than from before Sept 11. One of the guys at my airport pentetrated a TFR over the powerplant at Glen Rose and had to jump thru hoops to get his license back, but he is the only one I have heard of personally, other than the ones metioned on the news of being intercepted. North Texas doesn't seem to be impacted as bad as the Washington DC area does. It might be because the military radar tracked a 170 down in the Austin area and it was moving sooooo slooow that they determined general aviation just wasn't that big of a concern in Texas.
Joe
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
51 C170A
Grand Prairie, TX
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Bruce Fenstermacher
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GAHorn
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Joe wrote: "... the military radar tracked a 170 down in the Austin area and it was moving sooooo slooow..."
Truth has it that F-16's fall out of the sky when a B model puts it's flaps all the way out. The one's that really concern them are the ones that have a habit of high-speed, out-of-the-clouds-and-into-the-target, diving manuevers!
Truth has it that F-16's fall out of the sky when a B model puts it's flaps all the way out. The one's that really concern them are the ones that have a habit of high-speed, out-of-the-clouds-and-into-the-target, diving manuevers!
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JDH
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If any one was in the trade of hunting down presidents, they'd only have to get the NOTAMs on the TSRs to know where to be. Kind of answering CNN's questions about an ongoing war or mission in progress, you know our Special Forces really like it when some zealous politician does that... We (pilots who fly for fun) are different and to some, priviledged and unnecessary, so, to themasses in the big cities that would not ever consider getting up here with us, "NO BIGGY". You can bet that if for National security reasons, they shut down all subways (think Paris and Tokyo disasters), you needed a transponder code on your car before entering a tunnel or major city limit... The masses in the big cities wouold understand then. Yes, we are lucky if we happen to be in areas where we can roam around "free-er" than some of you.
There used to be a great program, before 9/11, called GATE, it allowed me to leave from my grass strip and fly directly into grass strips in the US without having to stop at a large airport, clear customs and immmigration. To be on this program, I had to be screened and interviewed (face to face); not everyone was accepted, you had to meet the requirement and be considered safe. That is now gone, so for me to go to Basin Harbour, VT for instance, I have to stop in Burlington and to that, I not only have to file, etc. I have to call ahead to make sure they kinow I am cominng, etc...
We have gone nuts with over reacting and in the wrong way; we North Americans (US more than Canada) are targets because our politicians spend more time minding other people's business than they do minding our own store... Like commercials about feeding the hungry in the 3rd world countries, very noble, but why don't we see those celebrities and groups on the tube asking for money for our homeless and our poor? Not in my backyard, out of sight?? To me, much of the same. OK, I'm off the box now. Happy flying!! JD
There used to be a great program, before 9/11, called GATE, it allowed me to leave from my grass strip and fly directly into grass strips in the US without having to stop at a large airport, clear customs and immmigration. To be on this program, I had to be screened and interviewed (face to face); not everyone was accepted, you had to meet the requirement and be considered safe. That is now gone, so for me to go to Basin Harbour, VT for instance, I have to stop in Burlington and to that, I not only have to file, etc. I have to call ahead to make sure they kinow I am cominng, etc...
We have gone nuts with over reacting and in the wrong way; we North Americans (US more than Canada) are targets because our politicians spend more time minding other people's business than they do minding our own store... Like commercials about feeding the hungry in the 3rd world countries, very noble, but why don't we see those celebrities and groups on the tube asking for money for our homeless and our poor? Not in my backyard, out of sight?? To me, much of the same. OK, I'm off the box now. Happy flying!! JD
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GAHorn
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"We have met the enemy and he is us." -Pogo
On a not too different note...
I went to a major, simulator-based flight training facility today to begin Citation school. (Name withheld for you-can-imagine-the-reasons.) I've been going to this compay every year or so since 1977 for recurrent or upgrade training in everything from Navajo's to Hawker's and to other places for Corsair's to 737's, but this is the first new type rating since 9-11.
As I sat down to fill out the paperwork in ground-school classroom they asked for my license, medical, high-altitude card, and passport and/or birth certificate (original with raised, embossed seal, ...no copy allowed.)
I said, "What? Why? I'm not planning on international ops."
"No matter", they replied. "Before we can allow you into ground school you must prove you're a citizen,...Justice Department rules!" They claimed their training confirmation paperwork they'd sent me informed me of that rule.
I showed them my copy of their letter, which said nothing of the kind, and they re-affirmed their position. I told them it was 100 miles to my house, ...a 4 hour round-trip and that I'd bring it tomorrow.
Nope. Nothing doing,...I'd have to leave the classroom.
I suggested they look at my past training records at their facilities, and they'd see they had a copy of my passport from when I went through their international procedures course.
"Oh! Well that would be the thing to do then!", they responded. "When would that have been?"
"Ten years ago", I said.
Nope. That won't do. Passports expire after ten years.
"Then you must bring an original birth record,...no copies. The rule states a valid (un-expired) passport!" (I guess my place of birth must be subject to expiration every ten years.)
I pointed out that I had a driver's license that had req'd a birth certificate to obtain.
Nope. That won't do. It's not a federal document.
I pointed out that I had a U.S. voter's registration certificate which U.S. Immigration accepts at any port of entry as proof of citizenship.
Nope. That is issued by the sec'y of the state of Texas . It must be proof of citizenship by a federal authority.
I pointed out that my U.S. pilot's license is a federal document and states that I am a U.S. citizen in block VI.
Nope. Justice Dept. rules state either a valid passport or an original birth certificate.
I pointed out an original birth certificate is not a federal document, but a state-issued document.
Sorry. You must leave the classroom.
Now, this was going to screw up a month-long reservation for flight-training that I would not be able to easily re-schedule, ...so I called my wife, who found my birth certificate, and then made the 4-hour round trip drive so I could attend class.
Their facility manager then made a "judgement call" that I could remain in class for that day's portion of ground school since my birth certificate was enroute. (Why it was OK to remain in class for it to arrive later the same day, yet it was not OK to remain in class for it to arrive tomorrow was a question I chose not to pose.)
My dear sweet wife was clever enough to bring the birth certificate that contained my correct name. (My original had my birth name, changed since adoption at age 7. God only knows what a tizzy that would have caused if the presented certificate had a different last name! I almost wished she'd brought it along just to get a rise out of them by presenting it first!)
Anyway, after they got it around lunchtime, they next made a photocopy
of it for my training records. I didn't dare ask them how their Xerox machine managed to copy the embossed, raised-seal denoting an original document. (It didn't. The seal was invisible on the photocopy.)
As they handed my certificates back to me, I started to tell them it would have been OK for me to miss today's lesson anyway, as I could make it up later in the training period, since I probably didn't need to waste time to learn the part about taking-off or Landing the damn thing anyway.
But I didn't, as I was pretty sure at that point no humor would have gone unpunished.
They take themselves far too seriously, and the Justice Department and much of the rest of this administration must be filled with fools is all I can say.
But don't all of you feel much safer and more protected now that you know that pilots who have been flying jets around the country for over 35 years are now required, prior to recurrent training, to present a document which has been altered to conceal the person's original identity, and which resembles a poor-quality, micro-fiche copy of a birth certificate issued by an obscure county hospital in Arkansas 55 years ago?
I thought so.
On a not too different note...
I went to a major, simulator-based flight training facility today to begin Citation school. (Name withheld for you-can-imagine-the-reasons.) I've been going to this compay every year or so since 1977 for recurrent or upgrade training in everything from Navajo's to Hawker's and to other places for Corsair's to 737's, but this is the first new type rating since 9-11.
As I sat down to fill out the paperwork in ground-school classroom they asked for my license, medical, high-altitude card, and passport and/or birth certificate (original with raised, embossed seal, ...no copy allowed.)
I said, "What? Why? I'm not planning on international ops."
"No matter", they replied. "Before we can allow you into ground school you must prove you're a citizen,...Justice Department rules!" They claimed their training confirmation paperwork they'd sent me informed me of that rule.
I showed them my copy of their letter, which said nothing of the kind, and they re-affirmed their position. I told them it was 100 miles to my house, ...a 4 hour round-trip and that I'd bring it tomorrow.
Nope. Nothing doing,...I'd have to leave the classroom.
I suggested they look at my past training records at their facilities, and they'd see they had a copy of my passport from when I went through their international procedures course.
"Oh! Well that would be the thing to do then!", they responded. "When would that have been?"
"Ten years ago", I said.
Nope. That won't do. Passports expire after ten years.
"Then you must bring an original birth record,...no copies. The rule states a valid (un-expired) passport!" (I guess my place of birth must be subject to expiration every ten years.)
I pointed out that I had a driver's license that had req'd a birth certificate to obtain.
Nope. That won't do. It's not a federal document.
I pointed out that I had a U.S. voter's registration certificate which U.S. Immigration accepts at any port of entry as proof of citizenship.
Nope. That is issued by the sec'y of the state of Texas . It must be proof of citizenship by a federal authority.
I pointed out that my U.S. pilot's license is a federal document and states that I am a U.S. citizen in block VI.
Nope. Justice Dept. rules state either a valid passport or an original birth certificate.
I pointed out an original birth certificate is not a federal document, but a state-issued document.
Sorry. You must leave the classroom.
Now, this was going to screw up a month-long reservation for flight-training that I would not be able to easily re-schedule, ...so I called my wife, who found my birth certificate, and then made the 4-hour round trip drive so I could attend class.
Their facility manager then made a "judgement call" that I could remain in class for that day's portion of ground school since my birth certificate was enroute. (Why it was OK to remain in class for it to arrive later the same day, yet it was not OK to remain in class for it to arrive tomorrow was a question I chose not to pose.)
My dear sweet wife was clever enough to bring the birth certificate that contained my correct name. (My original had my birth name, changed since adoption at age 7. God only knows what a tizzy that would have caused if the presented certificate had a different last name! I almost wished she'd brought it along just to get a rise out of them by presenting it first!)
Anyway, after they got it around lunchtime, they next made a photocopy
of it for my training records. I didn't dare ask them how their Xerox machine managed to copy the embossed, raised-seal denoting an original document. (It didn't. The seal was invisible on the photocopy.)As they handed my certificates back to me, I started to tell them it would have been OK for me to miss today's lesson anyway, as I could make it up later in the training period, since I probably didn't need to waste time to learn the part about taking-off or Landing the damn thing anyway.
But I didn't, as I was pretty sure at that point no humor would have gone unpunished. They take themselves far too seriously, and the Justice Department and much of the rest of this administration must be filled with fools is all I can say.
But don't all of you feel much safer and more protected now that you know that pilots who have been flying jets around the country for over 35 years are now required, prior to recurrent training, to present a document which has been altered to conceal the person's original identity, and which resembles a poor-quality, micro-fiche copy of a birth certificate issued by an obscure county hospital in Arkansas 55 years ago?
I thought so.
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dkalwishky
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doug8082a
- Posts: 1373
- Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 2:06 am
AOPA just published an article on their website reminding everyone about the Presidential TFRs now that he's on the campaign trail. Some of these could be, get this, SIXTY (60) MILES in diameter! While they probably won't be in effect for days at a time like in certain parts of the country, they could still mess up your day. Check with FSS before launching. Don't do anything stupid, but don't just sit there and take it either. Let your local government reps know how you feel. I understand the need to protect the prez, but 60 miles???? Give me a break!
Sorry, ranting again......
While they probably won't be in effect for days at a time like in certain parts of the country, they could still mess up your day. Check with FSS before launching. Don't do anything stupid, but don't just sit there and take it either. Let your local government reps know how you feel. I understand the need to protect the prez, but 60 miles???? Give me a break! Sorry, ranting again......
Doug
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rudymantel
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 4:03 pm
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