Landing the '48

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

You do not want to slip the B model with 40 degrees of flaps hanging out or you can/might/will blank out the air over the elevator, stalling it, and you will be looking at the ground quick.

With 40 degrees of flaps you shouldn't need to ever slip. Just push the nose over.

As a helicopter pilot I was never really taught (or didn't listen) to the stable approach line of thought. I've also been taught to "do what you got to do" to control an aircraft. As a helicopter pilot I have a pretty high sight picture for an approach angle. I'm always looking for ways to lose altitude and there just is no collective to help me that I've found in an airplane.

I usually fly a power off approach flaps up around 75mph ( a little fast I think). Short final (once I'm sure I have the field) I put all the flaps down and simply land normally.

Short final I pull all the flaps down doesn't sound to me to be the way to do it. (I know better anyway though you might see me do it). I'd plan the use of flaps just a bit farther out than all at short final. At least that is the way I'd teach it to someone learning the basics of the aircraft.

[bagarre]

"Once you're sure the field is made, dump the flaps..." A remnant of my flight training that I haven't experimented with yet.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

"Once you're sure the field is made, dump the flaps..." A remnant of my flight training that I haven't experimented with yet.

Who said that? Once the field is made. The field should ALWAYS be made. If you've got flaps in and in any kind of steady state leave the flaps where they are.

I'm picturing you at 30 feet just short of the runway dumping or pulling in all the flaps. Just probably the wrong thing to be doing at that time. You probably should be getting ready to flare with what flap setting you got and land.

Now I do know some folks who will almost lost directional control with the diversion of trying to dump the flaps IMMEDIATELY the moment their wheels touch to reduce lift and possibly add max breaking. I prefer to do that in a slower much more controlled fashion.

[GAHorn]

Short-final flap changes...and "stabilized approaches" ...are mutually exclusive concepts.

(In some rare instances applying significantly more flaps on short-final can be dangerous, for example, if the tail is already near stall, applying more flaps may exceed it's capability to provide downward-lift...and you could find yourself making a nose-dive into the ground "on short final".)

[canav8]

I thought I might chime in after reading the posts. First thing I noticed was a different solicitation for the same information from another thread. I will offer advice that follows safe and prudent operation regarding tailwheel operation.
First. Bruce F pointed out a very important point to something I commented on in a previous thread. He recommended you should be proficient in all types of landings. I failed to mention that but that is the Holy Grail in Tailwheel flying. You must be comfortable with all of them. It is essential to have all available tools to you in your bag to fix the problem when flying. If you find that you can do 3 point better then 2 point or vice versa, I hugely advocate you get out there and practice. It generally takes about 10 hours of landing practice to be consistent with landings. Oncy you have learned the muscle memory then you can walk away from it and come back. A lot of people have proficiency problems because they never established that muscle memory.

The Hangar Flying about the preffered type of landing is just that. Hangar Flying.
Any instructor that advocates one specific type of landing over another is a novice and you would be advised to look elsewhere for training. The caveat to this statement is application. Instructors that advocate a specific type of landing for environmental conditons specific might be able to share real knowledge on the subject. No instructor can make decisions for you. Please resist any advice about making configuration changes while landing. Trim or Flaps. Directional control loss is the leading cause of Tailwheel aircraft accidents. You should never change Flaps or Trim on landing roll out. That is purely a technique that older tailwheel guys have somehow think they were trainind but it is a technique. While learning tailwheel do your self a favor, the addage ALL HANDS ON DECK comes to mind. You are one busy individual and you should not be adding tasks to task saturation. Enough said about that.

As I said in the previous thread, generally your landing will be governed by environmental conditions. A two point wheel landing offers two benefits over a three point landing. First, if the need for a go around is evident then you will have the momentum already established and the go around can be initiated and established faster. Thats a good thing. The second is that the wheel landing offers greater directional control and offers more versatility. Again that is a good thing. The wheel landing is a little harder to master because of the speed. We are not talking about cruise speed here, we are talking about a few MPH. A normal approach speed in the 170 is approximately 70MPH that is 1.3 Vso. Being mindful that your stall speed is around 52MPH. The wheel landing will require just a few MPH over the stalling speed of your aircraft to be successful.Please be mindful that these speeds are not being quoted as limitation speeds they are being quoted as example given speeds.These speeds do not apply to the 48

A three point landing has its advantages as well. First when the aircraft has reached a three point landing the speed of the aircraft is slow enough and will prohibit the aircraft from being airborne again. Second is that the slower speed will put less wear and tear on your tires. Both of those are good things. Unfortunately you are positioned in the take off climb attitude with a high angle of attack on the main wing. If you were exposed to a strong and gusty winds you might exhibit the propensity to move in an uncommanded direction.

When I work with Tail wheel pilots and try to help solve their problems I ask a lot of questions. The problem is this. If you can tell me what speed you touchdown at then you do not have your eyes where they should be. They should be looking outside scanning the runway. You should never see your speed on landing. Having said that, George had provided some useful insight as to where the elevator neutral positon is by hand movement of the yoke. That is a good gouge also. You should know where that is. It is imparative to push forward on the yoke during landing roll out during a wheel landing. This will keep the wing from having a positive angle of attack and allow it to return to the air. As you decelerate on roll out the aerodynamic pressures will decrease and the yoke will be easier to push forward and you should keep pressure on the yoke until it hits the stops. At that point the tail has insufficient airflow over it and it will settle to the ground. At that point you can pull the yoke full aft to aid in tailwheel control.
If you find that you are falling out while landing then carry a little more speed. Remember the 2 point landing is flown on to the ground not flare landed like a three point. If you are using your muscle forces to flare then you have insufficient speed. The other discussion is use of power. The use of power again is an important tool. You should be proficient of both power on and power off landings. Power off is obvious because of Emergency situations and is more efficient but with judicial use of power you will also find that wheel landings are easier made. The most difficult again is the power off wheel landing because it is all about energy management. Get out there and practice what ever type of landing you suck at. You will get better at them I promise. Blue Skies and Tailwinds, D

[Fearless Tower]

A lot of people have proficiency problems because they never established that muscle memory.

This is probably the biggest problem I was having the other day and why I want to buy my own tailwheel plane. An hour or two a year in a taildragger just doesn't cut it.

[cessna170bdriver]

Short-final flap changes...and "stabilized approaches" ...are mutually exclusive concepts.

(In some rare instances applying significantly more flaps on short-final can be dangerous, for example, if the tail is already near stall, applying more flaps may exceed it's capability to provide downward-lift...and you could find yourself making a nose-dive into the ground "on short final".)

That "rare instance" most likely being while you are in a slip in a B-model; NOT a good idea!! It may not be accepted practice, but my normal approach and landing (not trying to clear an obstacle) is with 20 degrees of flaps. If I've misjudged the downwind-to-base turn or the wind, and find myseld somewhat high on mid to short final, I'll pull in 30 or 40 degrees of flap to steepen the glide. Early in the ownership of my airplane(B-model), before I had read the owner's manual as carefully as I should have, I did a slip with full flaps an was VERY rudely awakened! (It was one of those mistakes that just barely didn't kill me and my passenger, so I call it "experience".) So now, before I pull the flaps past 20 degrees I take a quick glance at the inclinomter ball and make sure it's centered.

I'm not going to relate my short-field landing technique - my flame suit is out for repair.

[mekstrand]

Any instructor that advocates one specific type of landing over another is a novice and you would be advised to look elsewhere for training.

Since this discussion has drifted a bit from 170 specific advice to general tailwheel instruction....

I would like to add some additional information that may be relevant before we self assess an instructors experience level.

In some high performance tailwheel aircraft wheel landings are not recommended (by the manufacturer), and typically not practiced (typically due to limited propeller clearance and poor visibility) A couple aircraft that I would include in this list would be Pitt's, Christen Eagle, and the Sukhoi. I recommend keeping an open mind and soliciting the advice and opinions of owners and pilots of the specific type of aircraft in addition the the advice of a qualified and experienced (in type) instructor. In some aircraft the "novice" may be the one who does teach both types of landings.

[Fearless Tower]

In some aircraft the "novice" may be the one who does teach both types of landings.

True - I've yet to find anyone who advocates or attempts 3-points in the DC-3.

[voorheesh]

There is good input in this discussion. I would like to add that where you focus your eyes is really important on landing. Some students who make hard landings followed by the bounce are focusing too close to the touch down point and are not able to sense their height accurately enough to time the roundout/flare. Things are happening too fast and they will fly the airplane into the runway. If they focus too far, they usually flare high and stall. I find that if your focus is at a point where you can identify either the 3 pt attitude and hold it off until touchdown or the wheel landing attitude and use a very slight flare to help with the arrival, you have a lot easier time of it. If you see a student (or find yourself) moving the yoke back and forth during the flare/round out, that is a sign you are probably not looking the right way.
For whatever its worth, I make power off wheel landings, use a slight flare, touch down tail low, and get the tail down fairly quick (not so quick so as to become airborne again). I don't see the point in pushing the yoke in after a wheel landing. I would rather get the tail wheel down and yoke full aft to help in directional control. If you have gusty wind conditions, this can be important.
For full stall landings, all 3 wheels touching simulataneously is great if you can do it, but it is not bad if the tailwheel touchs slightly early. As old Harvey points out in the "Compleete Taildragger" (good book btw), the CG is behind the mains. When the mains contact the runway, the cg keeps going down. Unless you stop it with elevator, cg down increases angle of attack and probably puts old Bessie back in the air again. This can happen either 3pt or 2 pt. In the Husky AFM, they don't address 2 pt. They advise a full stall landing with the tailwheel contact first.
Thanks for all the discussion. The low time guy's input is great.

[canav8]

Any instructor that advocates one specific type of landing over another is a novice and you would be advised to look elsewhere for training.

Since this discussion has drifted a bit from 170 specific advice to general tailwheel instruction....

I would like to add some additional information that may be relevant before we self assess an instructors experience level.

In some high performance tailwheel aircraft wheel landings are not recommended (by the manufacturer), and typically not practiced (typically due to limited propeller clearance and poor visibility) A couple aircraft that I would include in this list would be Pitt's, Christen Eagle, and the Sukhoi. I recommend keeping an open mind and soliciting the advice and opinions of owners and pilots of the specific type of aircraft in addition the the advice of a qualified and experienced (in type) instructor. In some aircraft the "novice" may be the one who does teach both types of landings.

I was not drifting from discussion if it was a reference from what I wrote and you quoted. The Thread topic was discussing a 48 Cessna 170. Although my contribution to this thread may have eluded to all encompassing it was not. I do not teach tailwheel in any kind of aircraft. I only teach in aircraft I have experience in. I do not use an avatar of a Christan Eagle either. Regards Doug

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Doug, I did not take mekstrands statements to suggest that yours were wrong or narrow. Sometimes we make statements with a specific airframe, model, color or part in mind because that is the topic but those statements aren't necessarily correct for every airframe, model, color or part made. I get caught doing this all the time. Someone usually chimes in with specifics.

I simply thought mekstrands comments added some perspective of other aircraft to a good discussion. Nothing more.

[blueldr]

Inasmuch as the C170 is a pretty simple airplane to fly and land, can you even begin to immagine how much discussion there would be here on this subject if we were talking about some real SOB type airplane?

[GAHorn]

I want to commend "canav8" for his excellent summary on this subject. I mean that.
I am not being the least bit facetious.
I wanted to say that first because ...I do take a different view on a couple of MINOR points.

.... You should never change Flaps or Trim on landing roll out. That is purely a technique that older tailwheel guys have somehow think they were trainind but it is a technique.....

Never say never.
This is not a technique that I think I was trained in....but I agree it IS a technique. I frequently retract flaps while on roll-out from a wheel landing, for the purpose of putting more weight-on-wheels if needed for braking...such as when dealing with gusty cross-winds...because by definition a wheel landing is made at flying-speeds and it's important to reduce that speed quickly to taxi-speed to avoid "the propensity to move in an uncommanded direction" due to a strong-gust. The idea is to get rid of flying=speed and get that tailwheel on the ground quickly. Problem is...you can't simply force the tailwheel down quickly while still at flying-speed because ..."Unfortunately you are positioned in the take off climb attitude with a high angle of attack on the main wing. "
So the answer is, while on roll-out the fastest way to reduce lift from the wings is DUMP FLAPS, and that action also increases braking action due to heavier wt-on-wheels.

.... ...A three point landing has its advantages as well. .... Unfortunately you are positioned in the take off climb attitude with a high angle of attack on the main wing. If you were exposed to a strong and gusty winds you might exhibit the propensity to move in an uncommanded direction. ....

The very point of doing a 3-point landing IMO is that touchdown occurs BELOW flying speed...the airplane is stalled as it touches down...and therefore there is little danger of the angle-of-attack having any capability to lift the airplane off again.

.... ...It is imparative to push forward on the yoke during landing roll out during a wheel landing. This will keep the wing from having a positive angle of attack and allow it to return to the air. As you decelerate on roll out the aerodynamic pressures will decrease and the yoke will be easier to push forward and you should keep pressure on the yoke until it hits the stops. ....

I disagree with continuing a wheel-landing roll-out to the point of needing to push the yoke full-forward against the stops. Why?
Because as the airplane slows the elevator loses effectiveness (which is why one would even find it necessary to push the yoke full forward until it "hits the stops")...unfortunately that also means the RUDDER (which is even smaller/less-effective than elevator) is ALSO IN-effective....and the airplane is at the very edge of loss-of-control if a side-gust should come up.

It's a learned-judgement...but as I find the need (on rollout) to push further forward on the yoke to hold the tail UP... I deliberately let the tail DOWN...BEFORE running out of effective elevator/rudder. (Remember, I've already/simultaneously dumped the flaps, so the tailwheel-down will not cause the airplane to "fly" again. ) The MOMENT the tailwheel touches I pull full-aft-yoke to "stick it". (Because I let it down gently...not let it fall due to loss of effectiveness while pushing full forware yoke... I've controlled the tailwheel's gentle touchdown with that still-effective elevator. Pushing full-forward til it hits the stops, and letting the tailwheel FALL on the ground. ...is Hard on tail-gear and springs.

In short, flap-reduction/braking/letting the tailwheel down/aft-yoke to "stick" the tailwheel is a simultaneous action...yes, a "technique"... that is practiced, learned, and very useful. It is all performed immediately after wheel-landings in gusty winds. It is not "wrong"...properly practiced/learned.... it's usefull and skilful use of ALL the available equipment to bring the airplane to a stop...just like FAA recommends.

[Larry Holtz]

The topic is about landing a '48. The thread has drifted to flaps. The flaps on my '48 only come into use with three point landings on short grass strips. they are useless on the standard paved stip. '48 and B model flaps are apples and oranges.

Larry