170 Takoff Performance

[GAHorn]

The recent discussions regarding speed and performance surrounding other airplanes prompted me to tell on myself.
No question about it, there are some runways that were not designed for 170's. A local grass strip (Deer Pasture, see the pic at http://www.airnav.com/airport/69TE ) owned by a kind old gentleman named John Bowden was visited by me just yesterday in the hot afternoon. The pic doesn't show it very well, but at each end there are trees that rise 30-50'. This means there is only 2,000' between the trees.
Since I was alone, (I had just filled with fuel at Lampasas a couple miles away, and had 100# of baggage), and since I knew John flys in/out of his own strip with his planes (a '60 182, an old Aeronca Champ, and a 1920's Curtis Robin) I wasn't too concerned. But I'll give it a little thought before I do that again on a 100-degree day!
When I left, I went to the end and applied power briskly and went rolling down the smooth, short-grass runway. I lifted off about mid-field and made the amatuerish mistake of raising flaps before clearing the obstacles. That prolonged my time spent in ground-effect and I had to slide a bit sideways to pass a treetop and clamber through and between the crowns of trees to avoid a collision with them, with the stall warning occasionally beeping all the time in the afternoon turbulence!
Checking the performance figures in the Owner's Manual, and rounding up to the next field elevation of 2,000, I see it claims a necessary distance for gross wt. of 2450' flaps 20, and 2500' flaps up, for takeoff over a 50' obstacle. Since I was weighing approx 1900 lbs, it was certainly a validity-test of the performance figures.
I don't expect to fly into his strip much in the future unless I weigh a bit less and/or the temp is a bit cooler. It's a less expensive option to a 180 with ugly tailfeathers.

[N1478D]

Cold Beer or Black Jack when you got home?

[N170BP]

The private ranch I speak of going into now and then is similar.
It's 1800 feet long at around 2600 feet elevation, and there's
a dog-leg in the runway (1st 200-300 feet or so). One way in,
one way out. Only way for me to get out of there is a light
load, half (or less) fuel and at the crack of dawn. There are
100 foot trees at the end you must clear....

One of the co-owners of the ranch goes out of there in a
75hp Champ but also only in the morning (before the heat comes up).

A friend just came out of there in the heat of the afternoon (100 degrees)
this last Sunday in his 180 with 3 folks and nearly full fuel on board.
I just make do with the 170 and operate it within it's limitations.

Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP

[russfarris]

Yep George, a similar experience is what pushed me torward a 180.

Back in June, the Significant Other and I flew 43A to North Captiva Island, Florida (near Ft. Myers), a great little resort accessable only by boat or airplane. Rented a house for six days, and had a great time, I might add.

The grass airstrip is 1,800 feet long, with clear approaches over the water at both ends, with a built-in 15 knot cross-wind. Landing, of course, was no problem.

During the week I watched a 182 depart several times with four people and full fuel, with power to spare. Even a P210 with a STOL kit did very well.

Now, I had tailored the fuel load so we would depart at about 1,800 pounds - 400 below gross. And it wasn't really a problem, but let's just say you wouldn't mistake it for a 757. Or a 180. We used over 3/4 of the runway, which is about what I expected. There just wasn't much margin for error.

When I bought my airplane, I had no illusions about its performance. Since I naively believed it was going to be a local fly for fun airplane, I didn't think it would matter. But long cross countries, headwinds and short fields have convinced me otherwise.

I hate to give it up, it's a great airplane with a colorful history. I've spent lots of time, love and money getting it exactly the way I want it, and now this...Russ Farris

[russfarris]

Since I'm up late and thinking about the Florida trip in June, I guess I should share an experience that only airplane owners and pilots can really appreciate.

On the way back to Charlotte, NC the weather (active TRWs) forced a landing at Titusville, near Cape Canaveral. After lunch in the airport cafe
(great food and aviation stuff, BTW), I made my way back to the ramshackle FBO, to order fuel. Inside, I passed an older gentlemen wearing a floppy hat who looked very familiar. I caught up with him and said "are you John Glenn?" Yes! - he had been at the Cape to re-open the Astronaut Hall of Fame, along with his wife, Annie. At 83 years old, he's still flying around in his Baron 58P, which was parked next to my humble 170. You could tell he had 40 plus years of dealing with the public - he asked my name and went out of his way to introduce himself to Shayla. Annie was very nice, too. I refrained from telling him how they pulled us out of class in 1962 (I was seven years old) to watch his Mercury-Atlas launch on a black and white TV in the school auditorium...I figured he'd heard that story before. I took about one minute of his time before he and Annie blasted off into the murk in their radar-equipped, de-iced Baron. 30 seconds either way and we would have missed them. It was quite an honor.

Not that I'm keeping track, but I've met four astronauts from the early space program days. Alan Shepard at a book signing, Tom Stafford (??? Gemini, Apollo 10; he was on my flight out of Huntsville) Glenn, and Frank Borman, who I talked to at Sun-N-Fun for 10 minutes about his P-63 Aircobra before I even noticed the name tag on his flight suit! Growing up in Florida in the 1960s, I knew who all these guys were.

Well, what can I say...it was cool! Russ Farris P.S. I'm re-reading "The Right Stuff", and in spite of its flaws, it is a masterpiece...

[rudymantel]

Nice story, Russ, and as you said, quite an honor ! How many of us will still be flying at age 83 ?
I can appreciate your pucker factor on that takeoff over/between the trees. Earlier this year I got a little anxious. I landed at a friend's 1800 ft airstrip in South Florida with a very heavy pax- he weights well over 300 lbs. Trees maybe 30 ft hi on one end and power lines on the other. I go in and out of there every few months with no problems.
This time stormy wx started to move in- really dark nasty stuff- and I decided to get out of there. The wind had shifted and was now blowind directly accross, mabe 15 plus knots. And it wasn't hot- luckily.
The grass was fairly long and we rolled and rolled. Never realized that crosswind would reduce performance so. I wasn't able to turn into the wind till just at the trees. I won't do that again !
I know you'll enjoy that 180 - best of luck with it !
Rudy

[N1478D]

Great Stories! Hope a bunch of us are still flying in our 80's.

Those tree limbs and leaves look thicker n hair on a hounds back when you are down amongst them unwillingly like that don't they?

[GAHorn]

As one of several winners of the 8th grade science fair in Houston back in the early sixties, I got a trip to the new Space Center (before it was named after LBJ) to receive my reward,....a chance to present my project to NASA administrators and have lunch with the original 7. I had my picture taken with them and was given the resulting 8 X 10 photo, autographed by all of them including the one who never flew, Deke Slayton. (They never let him fly because he developed a heart-murmur, and he became the astronauts' training director.)
It ended up in my old Boy Scout footlocker along with my Boy's Life Magazines and rock collection, and I didn't think about it again until the "Right Stuff" movie came out. When next I was at my parents house, I went up into the attic and couldn't find the old wooden, camp-footlocker. I asked about it, and was informed that the footlocker of 100's of Boy's Life magazines had been sold at a garage sale, the photo whereabouts was unknown. I'm guessing that someone discovered my photo when they went thru their Boy's Life's, unless it was a used bookseller, in which case somewhere it might still be hidden in a magazine in a flea-market.

[Dave Clark]

George

Even with all your knowlege and experience you almost had consequences from your misjuudgement. This is a lot easier to do when you're high or hot or heavy in the Arizona desert and mountains. Worse yet if you have two of the three. Really bad if you have all three. All of which led me to the Lycoming conversion. It is not the total answer as you must still not overestimate the performance but it sure makes the plane safer for my type of flying.

Glad you kept it in one piece.

[170C]

I regularly operate out of a 2000 foot grass stip (42XS). It is slightly downhill to the south (prevailing wind) and numerous times I have taken off with a 250# passenger, full fuel and all the junk we tend to accumulate in our planes. Other than a pipe fence across the FM road it is about 1/4 mile before the houses start. I have seen a few times when I elected to aim between the roofs. Most of the time its no problem, but taking off to the north is another story due to being up hill and a 20-30 foot railroad embankment to deal with. Fortunately I have never had any close calls, although several years ago I tried to take off with 4 average sized men on a hot day w/ full fuel and aborted & offloaded one of the passengers. Flew down to Christoval, Tx 8-10 yrs ago when 888A had the older engine. Landed on a ranch w/ spouce. Next day I took another guy with me to go after fuel & as we headed, for the far corner of the field (one that had had oates in it the prior yr) I barely got over the Mesquites. Boy, some of the close calls we (fortunately) live to tell about. George, must have been due to those ugly tail feathers. By the way George, lets not be too hard on those non-rounded tail feathers. Ha!

[Dave Clark]

Back in about 1975 when we were on a trip to California in our 170A we stopped in Medford and heard a really terrible thing had happened. Apparantly a fellow 170 driver and his wife,both licensed pilots, were departing a nearby bush type strip short and built into a hillside. Witnesses overheard them debating weather to take off uphill into the wind or downhill downwind. I guess it was quite an arguement but the left seat won and decided to go uphill. They did a classic departure stall in the attempt to clear the trees and it killed them both. I never forgot that story.

Our strip here at Stuart Island is 2000 ft with water on each end so we have clean approaches. But it drops 11 feet from one end to the other. Now you wouldn't think that is much but let me tell you it makes a real difference. I take the slight downwind and uphill landings every time. It's surprising how much longer the takeoffs are in that direction. When the wind blows really hard we have to land downhill but then of course we have an effectively much longer runway.

I went out of Kerrville years ago in a 180 hp Lake Amphib with a buddy riding along. I went upwind uphill because there was a pretty good wind and it was really good that the land dropped off to my left over the golf course. Scared the heck out of me and passenger pilot. It's nice to have good luck and survive.

[zero.one.victor]

I'll take being lucky over being good any day! Dave,which way is uphill at Stuart,to the west? Too bad you didn't make McMinnville,it was a good one. Bill & Sally didn't make it either,too busy with the new place up there I guess. Saw George Renquist & his wife though,so Stuart was represented. Visited at the fly-in with Garth & Debbie Vickery from KBLI, nice folks. He did a nice job rebuilding his B model.

Eric

[Dave Clark]

Hi Eric

Yes Stuart is uphill to the West. If there are general whitecaps throughout the area and blowing from the South or Southwest (calm water at the North shorelines) then the wind will bend around the Reid Harbor entrance and end up coming down the runway from the East. You will seldom see any crosswind on the ground because the runway is down below the high trees and hills. I hold 70 and make the approach steep from the West because you can get quite a jolt when you drop below the tree line. Then it's a wheel landing where you can pin it down for good braking. Careful of the wet grass when it is green because several nose pushers have run out of runway here by counting on the brakes and then sliding along till they got in trouble.

Yep Garth did a fine job on his plane. He has a line on a 195 and we talked quite a bit about that. They are rally good people. We would have flown down with them (they stayed here Sat night) except we had been off Island for three days and were just wanting to relax a bit.