2010 Nall report

[Flyfshr]

...after I showed him that the gear switch was still in the up position.

If I were an A&P I would've sent him a bill for the diagnosis...

[wingnut]

Harlow, Do I have to explain this to you?
The Speaker of the House doesn't think rich people should have to pay their fair share of taxes, so to cut the deficit Congress wants to get rid of regulators and downsize gov't, so what better place than the agency that supports all those private planes?

Can you be more specific about what's going on; relative to the Speaker and the FAA? Hillbilly minds want to know

[voorheesh]

Another thought on safety I should have mentioned: Type clubs such as the International Cessna 170 Association are known to support a safety culture and their members are safety oriented. That has been my experience in nearly 7 years with this organization and I really appreciate it. The information and advice presented here make our airplanes more reliable. The experience and input received on flying from everyone on these forums is very valuable. I am sorry I couldn't make it to the convention in SAN so I could put some faces to names but things didn't work out for that. Anyway, it is a real pleasure participating on this forum

[Fearless Tower]

I also take all statistics collected by government agencies with a grain of salt. A friend had an in flight fire. He landed an purposely steered of the runway. You will find his accident statistic under pilot loss of directional control, no mention of a fire. He was in a red airprlane, thank goodness it had a nose wheel.

Excellent point. I recently heard an ATC tape of a Bonanza that had an engine failure approaching the airport here in SoCal. The pilot made the airport, but had a hard landing and there was damage to the plane as a result. The prelim report made it sound like any botched landing - no mention of the engine failure that precipitated the landing.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Can you be more specific about what's going on; relative to the Speaker and the FAA? Hillbilly minds want to know

Nothing new is going on with the Speaker and the FAA. Just the some politically slanted commentary.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

I am sorry I couldn't make it to the convention in SAN so I could put some faces to names but things didn't work out for that. Anyway, it is a real pleasure participating on this forum

I'm sorry you couldn't make it as well Harlow. We would probably find we think a lot more a like than different. But we work on opposite sides of the fence really. My experience working under the system leaves me with the feeling the glass is half empty. I have to deal with the reality of the regulations that in to many cases seem to go against good logic.

Your experience working for the system leaves you with the feeling the glass is half full. As a person trying to make sure the regulations are implemented you have to believe in them or you probably couldn't do your job.

Harlow I appreciate your participation here at the forum and your view point which helps to balance the forum.

[jrenwick]

Getting back to the original point that the 2010 Nall report (which I haven't read yet) indicates that "taildraggers represented about 45% of all non-commercial accidents in single engine fixed landing gear aircraft":

Clearly there are reporting errors, and if every accident or incident were accurately reported, this statistic would be different by some amount. Would it be 40%? 30%? I don't know. But as an instructor, I can teach with it, whether it's accurate or not.

As Bruce pointed out, taildraggers are often used in off-airport operations (so are some tricycle-gear aircraft), that involve non-standard landing patterns, low-level maneuvering, and other things that are known to contribute to accident causes. I can build a story that maybe operating off-airport habitually can lead to a shift in attitudes. There's a part of my syllabus that goes into pilot attitudes, points up a few dangerous ones, and talks about how these contribute to accidents, how to recognize them (the hard part!) and how to mitigate them. The Nall report gives me a piece of "hard evidence" that reinforces what I'm saying, and lets me say that when you depart from the rather regimented rules and procedures you learned during primary training, you need to be especially vigilant against these five or six dangerous attitudes that tend to rise in all of us and lead us into fatal situations.

Now, am I lying with statistics because I know that the real number is probably different from what the Nall report stated? I don't really care. The point is to use anything we have at our disposal to help the lesson stick in students' minds.

[wingnut]

After re-reading this thread, and my post, I'd like to say that my comment about " when the feds came to help me "----was a meant to be a fun joke. I had a very good relationship with him, and that's what he actually said when he introduced his new hire, whom he was training. And, he said it as a joke, to get a laugh. But, he really was helping me, because the owner claimed he lost the logs, but told them I had done the last annual. By getting copies of my log entries into the fact file, and reviewing the work that had been done, and noting the amount of hours the aircraft had flown since I had worked on it, probably saved me some problems with the owner later.
And, I didn't intend to imply that there was some sort of agenda, nor that there is a failure with the NTSB or FAA methods of data collection. My only purpose for my previous post was to actuall point out that the stats, in this case, only reflect known data, and that the fault lies mostly with aircraft owners not reporting. Not the fault of any government agency.
Sorry to get OT

[GAHorn]

Can you be more specific about what's going on; relative to the Speaker and the FAA? Hillbilly minds want to know

Nothing new is going on with the Speaker and the FAA. Just the some politically slanted commentary.

I suppose it was politically-slanted.... but not in the normal sense ...as if to discount info in the comment or to discount the person's view who posted it. Bruce clearly thought of the post as a distraction from this thread and was (courteously/stongly) suggesting I delete it.
I disagree and believe it was applicable and appropriate as a response to Harlow's post. It seems to me that Harlow was including in his post a valid viewpoint that it's a popular notion to criticize the gov't.... politicians.... regulatory-agencies....etc etc... much like this thread criticizes the inadequacies of the 2010 Nall Report. Such criticism overlooks the value in the report, much like such criticism overlooks the value ...in fact, the NEED for gov't, politicians, regulatory-agencies, etc. etc.
My comment was intended as a gentle criticism of those who think ALL regulations are bad. All gov't is bad. All taxes are bad. All politicians are bad etc. That's just too simplistic.

Anyway, my comment was meant to point out that when the congress fails to fund gov't agencies... especially regulatory agencies.... like FAA ...(yes, FAA - another agency everyone thinks popular to attack) .... then it is WE who suffer the consequences. The lack of funding interrupts on-going needed oversight of new-product-certifications and other important aspects of FAA which benefit everyone in the country from employers to employees....including FAA employees who also have kids, mortgages, and ill family-members with car-payments and electric-bills due.

IN other words.... the Simpleton-answers to these kinds of issues, like simplistic criticisms of the Nall Report ...or FAA...etc.., ... are virtually never correct or helpful. My response was a toungue-in-cheek agreement with Harlow's viewpoint, and I'd only hoped it might have caused a harmless smile or two in our group. (As well as instigated a bit of tolerance toward others.... apparently I missed my mark. Another good example of how voice-inflection, inuendo, and such do not travel the internet well.)

I think the Nall Report is a good and necessary thing, even if the statistics is relies upon have limitations.

[W.J.Langholz]

NOW I UNDERSTAND WHY MY INSURANCE IS SO HIGH ON MY NOSEDRAGGER.......

W.

Just thought i'd chime in a bit to lighten things up

[voorheesh]

I am employed by the FAA in a very low level position as a FAASTeam (FAA Safety Team) Manager for Northern CA. I am an aviation safety inspector but I am not involved with check rides, investigations, or enforcement. I am involved in CFI/DPE workshops, runway safety, approach and landing accident reduction, and several other efforts to improve aviation safety. I am a project lead on a national effort to reduce aerial application accidents. Before joining the FAA, I spent nearly 25 years in industry as a regional airline pilot and supervisor (check airman,121 chief pilot/DO) and that experience tends to influence my attitude towards the FAA and government oversight. I do have a glass half full attitude and I also have sympathy for those who see otherwise. I am an active GA pilot who flies over 100 hrs/year in my 170 and in a tow plane at my glider club. My tow plane "boss" is low n slow, a regular on this forum. He will undoubtedly attest that I am no better than anyone else around here. I am not in the least bit ashamed of my employment with the FAA, an organization I have found to be of high quality on every level.
Regarding the core issue in this thread, I am not convinced that tail wheel airplanes account for the numbers or percentages stated in the early comments. If they are, that would be a subject of interest to us all. We should be doing some soul searching to find out why we are seeing those numbers. John Renwick is on the right track in his syllabus that highlights common risks we all face including hazardous attitudes. I am very interested in CFI and DPE issues and invite all of you to give me input and ideas which can help improve safety and quality of general aviation. I can sure use them.
I am not a political person and I have a great faith in our country and its long history of overcoming adversity and ultimately doing the right thing. I truly believe all of us will solve our problems and we will all be better for that.
I am sorry if my employment is a source of controversy in this organization and I hope we can continue communicating without making a big deal of it.
Harlow

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

I am sorry if my employment is a source of controversy in this organization and I hope we can continue communicating without making a big deal of it.

It is not a controversy with me nor is it a big deal.

If I ever worked for the FAA or another government agency I'd have to feel the same as you and I wouldn't be ashamed of my work either. I've actually considered applying to the FAA because there is a lack of experience in the FAA in my field of flying helicopters. At least this is what I see and it's what has helped lead my prospective to a half empty glass attitude. Sometimes I wonder if some of the folks I've run into, who should now better, really believe that helicopters beat the air into submission.

[lowNslow]

My tow plane "boss" is low n slow, a regular on this forum. He will undoubtedly attest that I am no better than anyone else around here.

I'll not only attest that Harlow is one the greatest airport bums and tow pilots you'll ever meet but he is truly an example of what you would hope for in an FAA "ambassador". While he always coaxes us toward safety at our soaring club (as should we all) I have never seen him come down with the heavy hand of the "law". We are lucky to have him participating in our forum.

[GAHorn]

I am sorry if my employment is a source of controversy in this organization and I hope we can continue communicating without making a big deal of it.

It is not a controversy with me nor is it a big deal.

If I ever worked for the FAA or another government agency I'd have to feel the same as you and I wouldn't be ashamed of my work either. I've actually considered applying to the FAA because there is a lack of experience in the FAA in my field of flying helicopters. At least this is what I see and it's what has helped lead my prospective to a half empty glass attitude. Sometimes I wonder if some of the folks I've run into, who should now better, really believe that helicopters beat the air into submission.

Harlow, ...I consider your employment situation a fantastic CONTRIBUTION and resource to our group. I know I'm not the only one present who is GLAD you are in our group!

Bruce,... I hate to admit it but... two of the BEST FAA Inspectors here at my workplace... are former helicopter pilots. They have the knowlege, experience, and insight to recognize that aviators have difficult and complex jobs...and that there are usually several ways to solve most operational problems and still meet "the rule". (And, ...in addition... they both formerly flew GREEN helicopters! (U.S. Army "Slicks")

[n3833v]

I have a freind that also works for the FAA and I do remind him that he now knows both sides of the fence and to rmember where and how he got started. All agencies need practical people for common sense to allow fair judgements.

John Hess