Re: Tail Up Taxi...

Post by **Bruce Fenstermacher** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:57 pm

gahorn wrote:and in those days I imagined I was a bachelor-playboy jet-jockey and a fun-loving idiot. I got lucky and never hurt the plane.

These days I'm happily married.

So your now a happily married-playboy jet-jockey and fun-loving ..... Texan.

blueldr · Post by **blueldr** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:08 pm

How many of you aces use a tail high roll out on a short field landing in order to keep braking weight on the mains? That used to be the style on the Dizzy Three.
Real easy to do on the C-170 if you have double puck Clevelands too.

When I was a batchelor playboy, they did'nt have jets.

bagarre · Post by **bagarre** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:23 pm

blueldr wrote:How many of you aces use a tail high roll out on a short field landing in order to keep braking weight on the mains? That used to be the style on the Dizzy Three.
Real easy to do on the C-170 if you have double puck Clevelands too.

When I was a batchelor playboy, they did'nt have jets.

That's how I land all the time. Put it on the mains and hit the brakes. Gives me great control in a cross wind and I can stop shorter that way than three pointing it.

canav8 · Post by **canav8** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:13 pm

Dizzy 3 and a 170 are different animals. Definitely do not recommend wheel landing and braking on a short field in the 170 like the operation you are describing for the DC-3.

Post by **Bruce Fenstermacher** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:19 pm

can o worms.gif

Well here goes. When I want to land short I make a slow approach landing three point and stand on the brakes. I do it the same in a cross wind.

Now before everyone gets uppity touting your favorite technique as the best way, I'm currently landing my 170 on Goodyear cross wind gear with required Goodyear brakes. I'm fairly confident not many of you here have spent much time doing that. When I had straight gear, and showing off, I would occasionally wheel land and ride the brakes hard. I could still three point shorter. But do this with the Goodyear brakes which do not exude confidence in ones ability to apply equal and constant breaking, and things get interesting real fast as the gear breaks out an you find yourself going somewhere sideways.

When I find myself traveling down the runway sideways I like to be on all three wheels.

bagarre · Post by **bagarre** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:08 pm

canav8 wrote:Dizzy 3 and a 170 are different animals. Definitely do not recommend wheel landing and braking on a short field in the 170 like the operation you are describing for the DC-3.

To open a can of worms..

Beg to differ.

I've been landing this way since I bought the 170 a few years ago and there is nothing wrong with it.
I'm over the fence somewhere around 60mph, and touch down in the neighborhood of 50ish (who looks at the ASI at that point?) I put it on the mains, yoke forward and get on the brakes. I make first turn off almost every time and I'm not even trying to make them a short as possible. Crosswind or not (and W00 has a direct crosswind almost year round)

I'm not going to say it's the only way or the best way or that everyone should land the way I land but I will say it's wrong to state you shouldn't wheel land and brake in a 170. It works just fine.

Post by **GAHorn** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:40 pm

bluEldr.... that's (Dizzy-3 style) how I frequently land...simply because it's fun.

But NOT because I want to land short-field....because that's not the way to land shortest. Wheel landings, by definition aren't slow enough to land shortest.

SHORT field landings are SLOW approach, 3-point, full flap, full-stall! (Just like Bruce's, except without the applause.)

bagarre · Post by **bagarre** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:50 pm

gahorn wrote: SHORT field landings are SLOW approach, 3-point, full flap, full-stall! (Just like Bruce's, except without the applause.)

The guys at the Valdez STOL competition seem to disagree.

Post by **GAHorn** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:18 pm

bagarre wrote:
gahorn wrote: SHORT field landings are SLOW approach, 3-point, full flap, full-stall! (Just like Bruce's, except without the applause.)
The guys at the Valdez STOL competition seem to disagree.

They obviously didn't see Bruces Petit Jean performance, done I might
add, with an average airplane, without special treatment.
No STOL competitive tricks. No super weight removal efforts.
No tube and fabric, big engine, or high dollar mods.
Didn't even brake hard.
Just a standard airworthiness certificate, and excellent piloting
skills.

pdb · Post by **pdb** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:34 pm

[quote] I'd say you're both right! 3 pt touchdown, and then hard on the brakes with the tail up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... w1Y#t=68s/ [quote]

They are doing three point touch downs, not wheel landings, and then standing on the brakes so hard that the tail comes up and, with luck, doesn't nose over, which is considered bad technique.

c170b53 · Post by **c170b53** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:28 pm

I don't trust Bruce anymore, he's obviously photoshopped the rotor mast, tail rotor out and subsituted a 170 fuselage into that landing vid.

Post by **Bruce Fenstermacher** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:27 am

Since it's been mentioned here it is

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsAk2zUNKOs[/youtube]

The runway does have a 0.8% uphill grad but wind was dead calm. This was just a slow approach. I bet I was under 50 when I touched. Loved those VGs. Miss that plane.

(OK I'll admit, I did enhance the applause)

170C · Post by **170C** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:28 am

I remember that landing very well Bruce! There needs to be a repeat performance at Petit Jean one of these days in the not too distant future

And just think how much better you could do it now with a GREEN airplane

However, I don't know if you could get your GREEN airplane as SLOW as a RED one

Post by **GAHorn** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:19 pm

170C wrote:I remember that landing very well Bruce! There needs to be a repeat performance at Petit Jean one of these days in the not too distant future And just think how much better you could do it now with a GREEN airplane ...

Thats the REASON...he'll likely do better! He will have to carry extra power tho'
to make the comparison duplicative.

Post by **GAHorn** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:21 pm

gahorn wrote:
170C wrote:I remember that landing very well Bruce! There needs to be a repeat performance at Petit Jean one of these days in the not too distant future And just think how much better you could do it now with a GREEN airplane ...
Thats the REASON...he'll likely do better! He will have to carry extra power tho'
to make the comparison duplicative.

OK, Bruce.....mid year at Petit Jean!
Anyone who can't make it can join via internet conference.