Heading South

[PaddyM]

We made it down to Lexington Ky and would like to swing over to Peach State-- looks like the time might work for some lunch-- I think I'm about 5 1/2 or 6 hrs to Atlanta , so if we get out of bed and traffic is not bad might be grub time.
Thanks for the tip,
Pat

[Poncho73]

George,
In February of 1951 I left Ladd AFB in Fairbanks, Alaska, to go down to Downsview (Toronto) Canada to pick up the first De Haviland Beaver that the USAF bought for service test. (That was the trip where I rode in a Tucker Snow Cat from Fairbanks, Alaska, to Dayton, Ohio.) I froze my butt off in the Toronto weather in the same clothes that I wore in Fairbanks at forty below. Ontario in winter is not for me ever again. Pat has the right idea.

P.S. The Tucker Snow Cat was in a C-119.

Did you meet George Neal when you picked up the Beaver in Downsview.

[blueldr]

Poncho73,
I don't remember that name. In fact , the only one I remember was Russ Bannock who, I believe, was operations manager at that time. He gave us a demo ride in the D.H. Dove and checked us out in the Beaver. I remember reading that he later became the head honcho of D.H.Canada.
This was in February 1951 and I remember asking him where they were getting new P&W R-985 engines for the Beavers they were building. I knew that the P&W R-985 and R-1340 production had ceased in about 1943 or 1944. He explained that since no other suitable engine was made for the airplane, they went all over Canada buying up old Avro Ansons and other WWII surplus airplanes to get the engines which were then sent to P&W Canada and to Laurention(sp) Air Services and were overhauled. My next question was where in hell were they going to find enough engines like that if the USAF liked the Beaver and placed a big order for them. "Ah!", he replied, "They will be GFE". (Govenment Furnished Eqiupment) "The USAF has hundreds of them in storage left over from the war Where they were used on the BT-13, AT-7, AT-11, C-45, OS2U Kingfisher, Grumman JRF Goose, and many others." So that's why all the beavers were built with second hand, out of production, engines.
When the D.H. Otter came along, they did the same thing with the P&W R-1340s except they were changed from a direct drive to a geared nose case with a 3 to 2 reduction.
As a matter of fact, when they built the twin engine Caribou, there was no suitable engine being built for it either. As a result, they adapted the surplus
P&W R-2000 engine which was produced only for use on the war time Douglas C-54/RD5/DC-4 and were also long out of production.
When you see a Beaver, an Otter, or a Caribou flying with radials, you know it's flying with antique engines.

[170C]

When you see a Beaver, an Otter, or a Caribou flying with radials, you know it's flying with antique engines.
BL

Sort of like if you see a Cessna 120/140/170/early 172's and many other mfg's light planes---"they are flying with antique engines"

Of course a lot of those planes are being flown by antique pilots as well so all usually works out OK

[Poncho73]

Poncho73,
I don't remember that name. In fact , the only one I remember was Russ Bannock who, I believe, was operations manager at that time. He gave us a demo ride in the D.H. Dove and checked us out in the Beaver. I remember reading that he later became the head honcho of D.H.Canada.
This was in February 1951 and I remember asking him where they were getting new P&W R-985 engines for the Beavers they were building. I knew that the P&W R-985 and R-1340 production had ceased in about 1943 or 1944. He explained that since no other suitable engine was made for the airplane, they went all over Canada buying up old Avro Ansons and other WWII surplus airplanes to get the engines which were then sent to P&W Canada and to Laurention(sp) Air Services and were overhauled. My next question was where in hell were they going to find enough engines like that if the USAF liked the Beaver and placed a big order for them. "Ah!", he replied, "They will be GFE". (Govenment Furnished Eqiupment) "The USAF has hundreds of them in storage left over from the war Where they were used on the BT-13, AT-7, AT-11, C-45, OS2U Kingfisher, Grumman JRF Goose, and many others." So that's why all the beavers were built with second hand, out of production, engines.
When the D.H. Otter came along, they did the same thing with the P&W R-1340s except they were changed from a direct drive to a geared nose case with a 3 to 2 reduction.
As a matter of fact, when they built the twin engine Caribou, there was no suitable engine being built for it either. As a result, they adapted the surplus
P&W R-2000 engine which was produced only for use on the war time Douglas C-54/RD5/DC-4 and were also long out of production.
When you see a Beaver, an Otter, or a Caribou flying with radials, you know it's flying with antique engines.

George became the Chief Engineering Test pilot at dHI. George flew the first flight of the Otter, Caribou and DHC-7. He flew 100's of DHC-2 test flights for delivery so he likely flew the one you picked up in 51. He's 94 now and still flies, but not much flying, George owns a Chipmunk, Hornet Moth and is building a Hawker Fury, what else would a 90 plus old guy do? Russ Bannock is well know, his son flies, I'm not sure Russ is still top-side but i worked with Russ defending a legal claim from an operator after a DHC-2 accident about 15 years ago. George Neal and Russ Bannock are members of Canada's Aviation Hall of Fame. You can search them too. Cheers

[PaddyM]

Kg,
We did make it in to Peach State-- nice aerodrome
had lunch and went through the museum-- got some pics
Thanks-- I think I will start a new thread about Lake Buena Vista.

[KG]

That's great Pat. I hope you enjoyed the lunch stop. When will you be coming back through northbound?

Keith

[blueldr]

Poncho73,
Thanks for the update. Russ Bannock was a real nice guy and I was sorry I didn't have a chance to know him better, but we didn't spend much time there after getting checked out, The new Beaver was equipped with a really ugly external belly fuel tank for the trip to Alaska. We cabin loaded a set of Skis and some other stuff, strapped the beast to our butts and tried to find our way home. My partner wanted to visit his home in Illinois so we flew a rather circuitous
route getting back to Fairbanks but we did manage to make it and only got a little bit lost when we ran off the charts we had.
Prior to our acquisition of the Beaver, I spent about four years flying another great Canadian bush plane. We had the last C-64 "Noorduyn Norseman" in the USAF, and they sold it surplus to Wein Alaska Airlines when I was down getting the L-20 (as it was then called) Beaver. I damn near cried when I found out the Noorduyn was gone. I loved that airplane. Flew it on wheels, skis, and 7170 EDOs.

[PaddyM]

We will probably head back up Thursday

[n2582d]

Prior to our acquisition of the Beaver, I spent about four years flying another great Canadian bush plane. We had the last C-64 "Noorduyn Norseman" in the USAF, and they sold it surplus to Wein Alaska Airlines when I was down getting the L-20 (as it was then called) Beaver. I damn near cried when I found out the Noorduyn was gone. I loved that airplane. Flew it on wheels, skis, and 7170 EDOs.

Hey Blueldr, I'm on a Denver layover and just found a great project for you! Hop on your Vespa, get over here, and buy yourself a Christmas present. As the A&P that showed me my C-170B project told me in 2001, "You'll have it fixed up and flying in a couple of weeks."

noresmansb.jpg

J.W. Duff Aircraft Co.
Edit: On second thought don't buy it. Looking here it appears that you can thank the USAF for your longevity when they sold that Norseman. It's amazing to see how many Norseman (Norsemen?) met their end in a fire. Probably where the term "crash and burn" originated. I'm guessing nitrocellulose lacquer on the fabric wings may have something to do with so many fires.

[blueldr]

Gary,
Thanks for the link to that site with the history of all the Noorduyn Norseman Airplanes. I havent had a chance to read much of it yet, but I'm going to see if I can't find my old log books and look up the tail number of the one I used to fly up in Alaska. When it left the USAF in Feb. '51, it went to Wein and went right to work for them , but I don't have any idea what "N" number it got.

[n2582d]

... When it left the USAF in Feb. '51, it went to Wein and went right to work for them ...

The Norseman looks like it must have been a beast to fly. Were the controls as heavy as one would assume just by looking at the plane? I remember reading in "Cessna: Wings for the World" that Thompson said that when he went to Alaska to demonstrate a C-170 he found that Wein was a ham-fisted pilot. If he was used to flying something like the Norseman I can see why. When I flew H-295's in Irian Jaya I recall hearing that the Dani tribesman anthropomorphised it to be a "male" aircraft. MAF's C-185's with their belly pods clearly were pregnant "female" aircraft. Good thing they never saw a Norseman as the Helio would have been seen as a young girl in comparison.