Entering the 170 market

[john]

Hello all. I am a new member, and am just starting the search for a 170. I am hoping to buy one this coming spring, and would like to impose on you for your suggestions and experiences (good and bad). I hope you will excuse my ignorance, but I have been away from light planes for about ten years.

I would like to stay all metal, and for now I think I want a 'B' model, but have not ruled out an 'A'. What are your preferences?

What equipment and/or mods should I look for or stay away from?

I'm sure I will have more questions later as I learn more. Thanks in advance for indulging an eager novice!!

John McShain

[GAHorn]

Hello, John! And Welcome!
You'll get lots of advice here.
All the 170 models are great airplanes, they just each have their own personalities and features. Check out The MX Library for the article on model differences.
While the B model is my own preference, the reasons that is so are only minute differences from the other models.
The 170 (so-called "ragwing"), because of modern synthetic fabrics, no longer poses the long-term maintenance problem it once did when it only sported organic fabrics. This is especially true if kept hangared, as under cover the fabric beomes virtually "lifetime" as far as longevity is concerned. The only "problem", if indeed it can be considered such, is a slightly odd fuel system which requires a fuel pump on the engine and a few gallons less fuel carried. It's not significant and is no reason to reject the fabric winged airplane should you find a good example. In fact, because of the perception of fabric-covered airplanes, they can be exceptional buys in the economic sense. They perform just as well as the A models.
The A model has the all-metal wing and later fuel system which dispensed with the pump and combined the fuel tanks from 3 into 2 larger tanks, one in each wing. The flaps are slightly different, but essentially the same "split' flaps. A fillet was added a-la the C-190/195 to the dorsal fin. Some instrument panel changes were incorporated, but otherwise the airplane is essentially unchanged.
The B model added the larger slotted, semi-Fowler flaps, increased twist in the wing (to improve aileron control at the slower speeds the flaps allowed), a stall warning (also to facilitate the lower handling speeds) and wing dihedral to improve stability. It also included counter-balanced elevators for improved controllability, and later models (those that came off the assy line in late '52 as '53 models) included a change to the engine cowl to improve engine cooling, and cabin ventilation/heating improvements. That year also included a change in the landing gear spring-rates (at sn: 25612) and in '55 a change was made to the tailwheel steering-cable circuit. In '56 the interior was redesigned to utilize the plastic interior panels that virtually all subsequent 172's used...not what I'd call an "improvement"....but a change worth noting. The copilot side flight controls and openable window became options rather than standard equipment.
In a nut-shell those are the differences. While most of the later changes (especially in the '53/'54/'55 models) were improvements, they are not necessarily "must-have" items. For example, if you don't live up "nawth"....then you probably don't need the cabin heater improvments beginning in '53.
The airplane will already land in places so short you'll have to take it apart to get it out of, so I'm not convinced the big flaps are a "must have" for landing...although an argument can be made that if you've already mis-handled the landing and are eating up too much runway....they may be the only thing that saves you from running off the end and into the ditch. I'm not sure that's a good argument however.
They do help should you find yourself having landed in that short place, tho'. The big flaps perform slightly better for takeoff performance than the split flaps, shortening the takeoff distance some. It's far better to simply be familiar with whichever model you end up with and fly it proficiently.
All that being said....after considering all the different models....I wished for a 53 or later B-model ....but when it got down to actually finding the airplane that would fit my pocketbook....I just got very lucky and actually found a later '53 B-model. Not because that was what I was specifically looking for, but because when I found the one I fell in love with, it just happened to be one.
More importantly than which exact model/features to "insist" upon, I'd recommend you look around for quality of condition, lack of corrosion, proper documentation, and engine time as first considerations....and all those other "desired" features as secondary.
Good luck finding your 170, and again, Welcome!

[Harold Holiman]

Welcome to the club John Although I currently own a Cessna 180, which I consider my "Overgrown 170 with a funny tail", for several years I owned a Cessna 170A. It was a great flying airplane. We basicly flew it everywhere between Key West, FL and Edmonton, AL, Canada during the time we owned it. The only reason I sold it after seven or eight years ownership was my wife wanted a 172 . After owning the 172 and then a 180 hp 172, I was ready for another 170 but ended up with the 180 instead. The International 170 Association lets owners of other than 170's be members as long as they still love the 170. As George said, all of the 170 models are great airplanes and you will find condition is more important than model. Again, welcome to the club of 170 people with a couple of 180 people sneaking in.

Harold H
Mbr #893

[spiro]

some additional comments on the difference between A & B models. The bigger flaps and counter-balanced elevator of the B add at least 50# to the empty weight. The dihedral of the B wings does improves longitudinal stability, but at the expense of cruise speed. Longitudinal stability is a good thing for an instrument platform but a hinderance when you need an immediate correction to a crosswind gust on very short final. Also, all A models did come with stall warning horns.

again, buy the best one you can find, irregardless of model.

[N170BP]

Welcome to the club John Although I currently own a Cessna 180, which I consider my "Overgrown 170 with a funny tail", for several years I owned a Cessna 170A. It was a great flying airplane. We basicly flew it everywhere between Key West, FL and Edmonton, AL, Canada during the time we owned it. The only reason I sold it after seven or eight years ownership was my wife wanted a 172 . After owning the 172 and then a 180 hp 172, I was ready for another 170 but ended up with the 180 instead. The International 170 Association lets owners of other than 170's be members as long as they still love the 170. As George said, all of the 170 models are great airplanes and you will find condition is more important than model. Again, welcome to the club of 170 people with a couple of 180 people sneaking in.

Harold H
Mbr #893

Which is more than the 180 type club can say for itself... (buncha
_ssholes...!!!!). It just rubs me the wrong way that I could be
interested in (if not darned near ready to buy) a particular type
of airplane but the type-club won't let me join unless I already
own the SOB.....

What a bunch of tight-wads..... (obligitory grin follows...).



Bela P. Havasreti
'54 C-170B N170BP

[170C]

John, let me extend my welcome to you. You have made one of the best decisions so far by joining the Cessna 170 Assn. You will find a lot of good information (and a lot of opinions) on this website. You will not find a better bunch of people to associate with, whether on this website or in person at flyins, conventions, etc. If you have questions, ask and you will most likely get an answer.

Good luck with you search for "your" 170. Keep us up-to-date on how your search goes. Once again, WELCOME!

[N1478D]

My Welcome too John. You might want to save some later aches and pains by starting now to exercise extremely large smiles, so that once you climb into your own 170, 170A, or 170B, your facial muscles will be somewhat use to it and they won't hurt so much. I have an A model and have put around 700 hours on it since I obtained the right as the caretaker in 10/98. It seems like a piece of art that needs to be preserved for future generations to enjoy like we are today, they are wonderful flying machines that many owners have had for 20, 30, or more years. Unlike the national average of 5 year aircraft ownership. I have flown B models, and to me, it is more the individual aircraft rigging and condition of the aircraft, than it is differences between the models. As far as popular mods and equipment: Cleavland wheels and brakes are an improvement, scott 3200 tailwheel, and I enjoy the thicker one piece windshield, but would have plenty of fun with the original in place. These planes like to be flown, and the ones that sit for long periods develop a few more problems, but they are very simple and economical to own and operate if the basic airframe integrity is there and the engine has been taken care of.

[JJH55]

John, Welcome to the 170 world! Your trip to locate a good 170 will be a fun one with lots of guidance from this forum. Seek out and find someone in your area knowledgeable with a 170 to help you locate your new mistress. There is nobody better than a long time 170 owner to steer you in the right direction and keep you from making a costly mistake. Given the age of the 170, lots of unauthorized mods/maintenance that have been done and are usually unnoticed to a novice buyer until its too late. Finally, read, read, read up on this bird. There is lots of good information in this forum and get The 170 book. Though some parts are becoming difficult to find, they’re out there.
JJH55

Which is more than the 180 type club can say for itself... (buncha
_ssholes...!!!!). It just rubs me the wrong way that I could be
interested in (if not darned near ready to buy) a particular type
of airplane but the type-club won't let me join unless I already
own the SOB.....

Bela,
The 180 club, http://www.skywagons.org allows non-members to gain access and participate in the forums. You will have to register and enter a password first but it does not require you to be an owner. You will have access to all of the forums but will not be able to post a classified ad. The added “value” of being a member isn’t much different from being a guest. One thing they have that I would like to have access to is the photo gallery. Lots of great photos of 180’s. Wish I could say the same for ours.

As with all clubs, (including this one), there will always be a number of “rectofiles”. Not sure I want to lump all of the 180 guys in that group...

[AR Dave]

After you've found a 170 and have about decided on it, asked these 170's owners to go over it with you. Maybe take digital pictures of the plane or plan a fly-in where the plane is located? I don't know the best way to do it, but trusting your local professional to do a complete buyers inspection could be lacking. IMHO!

Here's what I mean, George. Mods - Unless you know the 170 and it's history, you're not going to pick up or even see many mods. Through this forum, I'm continually discovering modifications that I didn't know were modifications. And the mechanic / FBO (prebuyers inspection) understandably didn't have a clue.
They do a great job on mechanics, airframe, & etc., but you could takeoff and fly an illegal plane from then on.
I'm thinking of ordering the $100 STC complete package from the club.
Joe pointed out the rubber on the leading edge of my horz stabilizer. I did find a 337 on it where had been put on in Anch..

What's the best way to catch all these modifications?

[GAHorn]

some additional comments on the difference between A & B models. The bigger flaps and counter-balanced elevator of the B add at least 50# to the empty weight. The dihedral of the B wings does improves longitudinal stability, but at the expense of cruise speed. Longitudinal stability is a good thing for an instrument platform but a hinderance when you need an immediate correction to a crosswind gust on very short final. Also, all A models did come with stall warning horns.

again, buy the best one you can find, irregardless of model.

I don't agree Spiro. Individual aircraft weights are dependent more upon installed equpment and accumulated dirt in the belly than the addition of flap and elevator improvements. The later B-models typically left the factory with radios and equipment that earlier airplanes lacked, and therefore may have weighed slightly more. The addition of elevator counterweights only added 1 3/4 lbs. The Scott 3200 had become a virtual factory-standard by that time and previously optional items (landing lights, etc.) were also more likely included with all B-models. (The passage of 50+ years and numerous equipment changes in all the models have likely made this distinction moot.)
The stall warnings were not included in all aircraft previous to the B-model. The stall warning was eligible for installation on the 170/170A but not a standard item until the B-model required it. (Item 607 on the TCDS.)
In theory dihedral may detract from speed, but only in theory. The factory never differentiated any speed between the A and the B models other than a reduction in slow speed capability of the B model. Any noticeable/measureable speed differences are due to individual aircraft characteristics and rigging (other than the widely-recognized speed advantage that serial number 25713 has over sn 20061).
Dihedral improves stability in all regimes of flight (except inverted), and by design, especially in turbulence and crosswinds. (Gust upset is the primary considered condition for the inclusion of dihedral in aircraft design. It is only in the perfectly calm conditions that the previously mentioned speed theory has any hope of validity.)

I do agree that it's better to lean toward an airplane of better condition regardless of model, all other things being equal. It's just almost impossible to find airplanes of this vintage that are otherwise comparably equipped and of comparable component times.

[N1478D]

George, you're so funny! Changes made in your model year are improvements, all other changes for other models are just changes! And, yeah, right, marketing is going to admit that the designers slowed the aircraft down by bending the wings, HA! Serial #20061 was on the planet before Serial #25713 because same as today, it's always waiting on #25713 to show up. Never seen an A without a stall warning device. It's interesting how on your old B a circuit had to be devised to turn the stall horn off if the throttle is fully opened.

[GAHorn]

I got my information from the Type Certificate and Cessna literature regarding the B models requirement for a stall warning that the A model did not require. I'll admit I've not inspected every A model I've seen for a stall warning. (It's too hard to see back there without a rear window or rear-view mirror. I've never seen engineering design a slower airplane for a follow on model either.)

[zero.one.victor]

John,what others have said about the 170/A/B choice is right on the money,they're all good airplanes. I was looking for a B when I found a great deal on a ragwing,which I bought to tide me over til the right B model came along. That was 6 years and 1,050 hours ago.......
My ragwing has a lot of mods,but I wouldn't classify any of them as "must haves". Lotsa guys say Cleveland brakes are mandatory,but I know several people who are perfectly happy with the stock Goodyears. And another 170er who prefers his Bodell brakes to Clevelands.
One thing to consider is avionics. I was trained to be more comfortable using a radio,even though alot of people I know are perfectly happy flying radio-less airplanes. Living near both Class B & Class C airspaces make me appreciate my mode-C transponder too. And me & my pax enjoy the convenience of my intercom. If you buy an airplane that needs much added in the way of radio's,that can add up to a lot of money. Just the minimal gear mentioned will cost over $2K new,plus probably another grand or so for installation.
Just try to get a 170 that is corrosion-free & in good shape,with paperwork for any mods & repairs done in the past,and with a sound engine. I'd rather buy a good airframe with a run-out engine than a beat-up airframe with a fresh engine. Overhauling an engine is expensive but otherwise not much of a problem,an airframe overhaul is a huge project.
Good luck with your hunt. Where are you located?

Eric

[Dave Clark]

Eric's right on. Airframe is THE most important. After that rank in your own preference. The more expensive items like engine and paint are cheaper to buy already done. In other words they will add far less to the initial cost than they will cost you to do later. That said it is always cheaper in the long run to buy the best you can afford.

Airframe airframe airframe. Also don't be duped into buying a low time but calendar old engine. That's a recipe for disaster. Do a search here as there have been other discussions about that.

The hunt can be frustrating but also a lot of fun. From now until March or so is the best time to buy. There might be fewer planes for sale over the Winter but there are fewer buyers by far and the prices can be thousands less than in April or May. Good Luck!

[spiro]

george,

>> I don't agree Spiro.

here we go again <g>...

>> Individual aircraft weights are dependent more upon installed equpment and accumulated dirt in the belly than the addition of flap and elevator improvements.

agreed.

>> The addition of elevator counterweights only added 1 3/4 lbs.

that surprises me. I don't have any data but it sures seems like a lot more to me. What's your source of that?

the 170A owner's manual shows a typical licensed MT weight of 1220#, the 170B manual I have shows an MT wt. of 1275#. That difference jives w/ my experience.

>> The stall warnings were not included in all aircraft previous to the B-model. The stall warning was eligible for installation on the 170/170A but not a standard item until the B-model required it. (Item 607 on the TCDS.)

on the TC I have (rev. 51) Item 607 shows the stall warning eligible on all models, no distinction there. The 170A parts catalog shows the stall warning as standard equipment, not optional. The 170A owners manual has a photo of the standard panel, which includes a stall warning. I've never seen an A without one, have you?

I stand by my comments on the dihedral. My A is a lot easier to flop around than any later Cessna I've ever flown. It also needs alot more tending to in cruise. And it's faster (iirc I do 108mph at 2350 w/ my 8042 and 8.50's, burning less than 6gph).

>> I've never seen engineering design a slower airplane for a follow on model either.

you think an early 172 with that big speed brake out front is as fast as a 170?

ok, since we're disagreeing here, here's another one of yours I've got a problem with:

>> I'll remind folks about the prohibition of slipping this airplane with full flaps.

I don't think there is. In the owner's manual they say you should "avoid" it, that's not the same as not allowing it. I've gotten into this with 180's, where there is a placard to avoid slips w/ full flaps, but it's not prohibited as many assume.

- paul