The International Cessna^® 170 Association

Aryana wrote:I won't surrender my logs to anyone (except the FAA or NTSB), especially an IA or A&P that I don't know. They can inspect/review them under my supervision but not a single word gets added without my preapproval.

Did I say something that confused or offended you? If you misunderstood me, let me clarify that I must have your logs in my possession to perform an Annual inspection. No logs, no annual. But I do not make an entry without the owner reading it first. In fact, I make my entries on sticky paper and paperclip them in the log. My due diligence done. It's then your responsibility to lick and stick. Your logs, your responsibility

That is why I said this piece of paper doesn't make me more or less of a qualified person to perform an inspection (for the purpose of buying an aircraft). The aircraft owner is primarily responsible for the maintenance records and I respect that. I do not make permanent entries in the logs. I make a log entry. It's the owners responsibility to enter it in a permanent fashion

Aryana wrote:I won't surrender my logs to anyone (except the FAA or NTSB), especially an IA or A&P that I don't know. They can inspect/review them under my supervision but not a single word gets added without my preapproval.

If you can't trust your A&P-IA with your logs why would you trust them to inspect your aircraft?

How would you expect the A&P-IA to do a proper AD compliance with out the maintenance records?

Fortunately I don't have customers with attitudes.

I must be one of those cranky customers as well. No one takes my logs anywhere.
I do owner assisted annuals so we do the log check and AD check together.
Besides, there's nothing in the logs that he needs to see except for how many oil changes I've done in the past year.
I've already created a library of when things were done, tach times, dates, equipment lists are all up to date from direct inspection of the plane.

Sam is a great guy and I consider him a friend of the family but my inspections aren't a matter of trust. I know everything that we do to the plane and understand the reason why.

I understand that not everyone is mechanically enclined or even wants to learn the depths of airplane maintenance. Those people must put their trust (and lives) in the hands of their A&Ps ans IAs.
I'd rather be considered cranky than trust someone else like that when I don't have to.

(That's a lot of pecking on an iPhone )

bagarre wrote:Besides, there's nothing in the logs that he needs to see except for how many oil changes I've done in the past year.

Now this I can disagree with. I could care less about owner performed preventive maintenance task performed during the past year. I don't care how many hours your oil has on it, or what type you use. Oil change/maintenance is not part of an annual.
It is good that you have an IA that allows you to furnish basically nothing. If he has done the annual for years then he knows the plane. That is good. He most likely is aware of all the alterations during the past 60 years, that they were performed correctly, that flight manual suppliments are there, that previous inspections have been performed flawlessly.............Good for you and him.
The topic was about a prebuy inspection, and about the recommendation to get an IA who doesn't have a dog in the fight. In my opinion, this would be an IA who has experience in type/model but has not been performing work to this plane. If an aircraft owner can't trust me with his/her logs, that is good indication I can't trust them with providing complete photo copies or "electronic" copies of same. So, it is a trust issue, very much a trust issue.
For most all other work; major repairs, mods, maintenance, I encourage the owner to keep the logs. I don't like the responsibility of having the logs in my possession, although I take it serious and have a safe storage for them. I simply can't perform an annual without them (the complete original maintenance records, including all logs and all 337 forms, and POH/AFM).
And again, in all cases, I never make a permanent entry without the owner having read, understand, and agree. By that point in our relatinship, we will both know what's happening and expected of each other.

Del is right, it's a matter of trust.

I have been fixing aircraft and handling maintenance records since 1960, and I have never lost one, And I'm not the exception. rather the rule for A&Ps

Unlike Del, I will make the proper entries and return the log to the owner/operator. Simply because many owners wouldn't know the proper verbiage for the entry.

T. C. Downey wrote:Unlike Del, I will make the proper entries and return the log to the owner/operator. Simply because many owners wouldn't know the proper verbiage for the entry.

Tom, I don't have the owner write the entry. I make the entry(s). They get typed and printed on sticky paper. Because the logs are the property of the owner, and as a courtesy, I simply paperclip my entry in the log (this action gets us legal to fly) The normal routine is for myself and the owner to sit down and look over my paperwork package at the end of the job, and then we peel and stickem permanently in the logs. Another reason for not permanently attaching the entry, is to wait until after the owner has made an acceptance flight.

Fortunately Del, we have no FAR that tells us what a maintenance records is. The FARs only tell us that the owner is responsible to insure we make the entry. The owner/operator can keep the records/entries in any form they desire.

True

Just what we need, another opinion(s)

If you are buying an airplane and your goal is to start and continue flying it with a minimum of surprises, then get an IA who you trust, preferably the one who will perform annuals/maintenance for you in the future and inspect the airplane. To me the most important qualification for the person inspecting the airplane is his/her experience and knowledge of the type/make/model. Lets face it folks, these birds are 60 plus years old, and anyone who thinks they can get a "guarantee" out of any inspection is kidding themselves. Having said that, if you get a 170 "right", it is probably one of the most reliable and least maintenance intensive airplanes available.

If you decide to perform an annual for the pre buy, you are putting the seller in a precarious position because an IA performing an actual annual is required to enter the inspection in the aircraft maintenance records and notify the owner of discrepancies. Remember, the IA is responsible for the inspection. The owner is responsible for the airworthiness. Just like repair stations that inspect crank shafts, there are different "opinions" and "findings" from different IAs. I see and hear about that all the time. Frequently, honest and competent individuals have different standards and techniques. Who are we to say who is right or wrong?

The comment recommending an inspection with findings noted informally and provided to both seller and buyer is the best way to handle this IMO. This is not an inspection required by the FAA. The buyers IA should inspect. The owner should provide an IA or A&P to actually perform any "maintenance" required for the inspection and then return it to service on behalf of the owner. This avoids all the subsequent finger pointing and accusations (Oh that never happens in aviation, does it?). However you do it, make sure both seller and prospective buyer and mechanic all understand what is happening and who is responsible. An ideal situation would be if the airplane was due for an annual, in which case, both the seller and prospective buyer might benefit from an actual annual inspection by a mutually acceptable IA.

I am disappointed by pilots who would not trust an IA with maintenance records. That sends an intimidating message to the Aviation Maintenance Technician that is insulting and entirely unnecessary IMO. If you can't find a qualified IA who you can trust, you should consider taking up another hobby. If you can't trust him/her with your logbooks, do you mean to tell me you are comfortable putting your life and safety on the line when you go fly the airplane just inspected? Good grief!

Lets say you have an annual inspection and the IA makes a record of a condition you disagree with. That is not the end of the world. That IA is not required to correct that condition. You can take the airplane to another A&P, IA, or Repair Station and get it corrected/signed off. The most important thing is to get it done right. To be safe.

One last opinion, be careful buying an airplane a far way from home. You are at a total disadvantage. You are more likely to overlook an obvious major problem because of the stress you put yourself under on someone else's turf. Ask me how I know this . You are far better off buying an airplane close to home where you can get your own mechanic/IA to inspect and maybe learn of the sellers reputation which can be telling.

voorheesh wrote:Just what we need, another opinion(s)

If you are buying an airplane and your goal is to start and continue flying it with a minimum of surprises, then get an IA who you trust, preferably the one who will perform annuals/maintenance for you in the future and inspect the airplane. To me the most important qualification for the person inspecting the airplane is his/her experience and knowledge of the type/make/model. Lets face it folks, these birds are 60 plus years old, and anyone who thinks they can get a "guarantee" out of any inspection is kidding themselves. Having said that, if you get a 170 "right", it is probably one of the most reliable and least maintenance intensive airplanes available.

If you decide to perform an annual for the pre buy, you are putting the seller in a precarious position because an IA performing an actual annual is required to enter the inspection in the aircraft maintenance records and notify the owner of discrepancies. Remember, the IA is responsible for the inspection. The owner is responsible for the airworthiness. Just like repair stations that inspect crank shafts, there are different "opinions" and "findings" from different IAs. I see and hear about that all the time. Frequently, honest and competent individuals have different standards and techniques. Who are we to say who is right or wrong?

The comment recommending an inspection with findings noted informally and provided to both seller and buyer is the best way to handle this IMO. This is not an inspection required by the FAA. The buyers IA should inspect. The owner should provide an IA or A&P to actually perform any "maintenance" required for the inspection and then return it to service on behalf of the owner. This avoids all the subsequent finger pointing and accusations (Oh that never happens in aviation, does it?). However you do it, make sure both seller and prospective buyer and mechanic all understand what is happening and who is responsible. An ideal situation would be if the airplane was due for an annual, in which case, both the seller and prospective buyer might benefit from an actual annual inspection by a mutually acceptable IA.

I am disappointed by pilots who would not trust an IA with maintenance records. That sends an intimidating message to the Aviation Maintenance Technician that is insulting and entirely unnecessary IMO. If you can't find a qualified IA who you can trust, you should consider taking up another hobby. If you can't trust him/her with your logbooks, do you mean to tell me you are comfortable putting your life and safety on the line when you go fly the airplane just inspected? Good grief!

Lets say you have an annual inspection and the IA makes a record of a condition you disagree with. That is not the end of the world. That IA is not required to correct that condition. You can take the airplane to another A&P, IA, or Repair Station and get it corrected/signed off. The most important thing is to get it done right. To be safe.

One last opinion, be careful buying an airplane a far way from home. You are at a total disadvantage. You are more likely to overlook an obvious major problem because of the stress you put yourself under on someone else's turf. Ask me how I know this . You are far better off buying an airplane close to home where you can get your own mechanic/IA to inspect and maybe learn of the sellers reputation which can be telling.

Well Stated.
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Aryana wrote:If a plane doesn't measure up or if you just don't like it, move on as there are plenty of other nice ones to choose from. The same goes for A&Ps/IAs too.

THAT depends on the market. I have been looking for a very specific airplane since I sold the 195 in August. In that time, there have only been 5 or 6 for sale in the various publications I monitor. The one I am currently looking at looks GREAT on paper, but peel away the layers of the onion, so to say, and the warts become apparent.

So how DO you value hail damage on a ragwing 170? Fuselage and fabric ok, dings on the metal horizontal surfaces.

Well guys I've had enough. I don't know if I've erased enough to remove all the offending words but I really don't care to reread it all. If there is more one or the other thinks I should erase so it does not stand let me know in a PM. The thread is locked.

Sorry Greg.