Prebuy Inspection issues

[Greg Bockelman]

I am looking for guidance on what kinds of issues to look for and what kinds of traps there might be during a pre-buy inspection. Other than having a mechanic look at it, is there anything a layman can look for that would sort of be like a pre-pre-buy?

Also, is there a list of AD's published on the site somewhere?

Thanks for the help.

[hilltop170]

Hi Greg-
Like Arash found out, there is no substitute for a full annual inspection by an IA of your choice who has not been the one doing the maint on the plane up to this point, has nothing to gain or lose from the deal, has no stake in it in any way, and is ONLY working for you.

An annual inspection is just that, an inspection which includes a list of discrepencies that the IA should determine is either airworthiness and required to correct, airworthiness that can be delayed, or cosmetic/discretionary.

Any airworthiness issues should be used in the negotiation of the purchase price.

It doesn't matter when the last annual was done or who did it. This is your annual, not the seller's. If the seller is reluctant or refuses to let another IA do the inspection, thank him and walk away, there is something wrong with the deal.

[C170U2]

When I purchased my 120 I sought out one of the respected members of the type club to look the thing over for me. He was not an A&P but he did have years of experience working on 120's and knew what to look for and where the problem areas were. I also called the last IA who did the last annual(also a type club member) and he gave me a bunch of insider info on the plane. So, I guess what I am saying is you don't always need to do a full blown annual to feel comfortable enough to purchase. Just make sure you do your do diligence.

If you go the annual route, be careful who you get to do the annual.....just because you are an IA doesn't mean you are an expert on a certain type of airplane. Make sure you find someone who has plenty of experience in type.

As for AD's...a simple search on the FAA website should answer all your questions.

Good luck!!

[bigrenna]

...you don't always need to do a full blown annual to feel comfortable enough to purchase. Just make sure you do your do diligence.

Couldn't be further from the truth. As has been said in this thread as well as in many others. Nothing less than a FULL ANNUAL should be done prior to purchasing an airplane. You may get lucky, but then again, you may not.

Just my .02.

[Bruce Fenstermacher]

Couldn't be further from the truth.

I disagree, what Mike said could be true depending on ones knowledge and skill. The most important thing to recognize is your limitations. I know more about these planes than most IAs I might have inspect an airplane. I know what to look for and at and how to accomplish the inspection. I'm confident I don't need an annual to know exactly what I'm buying. But here is the thing. If I could arrange it I'd probably have a friend IA inspect the plane with me for another set of eyes and reality check. When we I want to buy something we sometimes aren't the most impartial person and we rationalize something till it's OK. The most important tool the friend IA can have is a 2x4 to whack me side the head when somethings not found right.

Of course I'm not the average guy when it comes to these planes. Most people will be better of with a good annual inspection and I do recommend that.

But an annual inspection is not the end all. I had a friend who listened to my advise. He bought a Luscombe after talking to a Luscombe expert familiar with the plane and who he paid consulting time to answer questions and then having an annual inspection completed. Within a week I'd identified an item that did not meet the TCDS and a few others that where questionable. On paper the aircraft was not airworthy. The friend looked at me and asked me what to do. He'd done everything I suggested. I told him his recourse was to call the IA and at least get his money back for the annual and he could try to return the plane to the previous owner for a refund. And of course he probably needed a lawyer. Not so easy and he choose to eat the cost of a new prop and a few hundred dollars in other parts. So much for my advice. At least he didn't hold it against me.

[170C]

There are many who can relate tales of their experiences when purchasing a plane with or without a full annual prior to a purchase. I was about three weeks away from getting my private certificate when an opportunity came up to join two friends on the purchase of a '65 C-182 that had been at the airport where I trained since it was new. The airport owner had maintained the plane all those years (1965-1983). None of us were experienced aircraft owners, but one partner (not me) insisted that we have an IA he knew of to come do a quick check of the plane, which he did. He did a compression check and a few other items. His only comment was that the annual we would likely have to replace the exhaust studs on a couple of cylinders. At annual four months later up jumped the devil! Four cylinders with cracks between the exhaust valve & the spark plug. Exhaust leak had been blowing on the engine mount and caused a serious issue. Bottom line is that we ended up doing a complete overhaul, purchasing four servicable cylinders and vrs other items. The only silver lining to this otherwise dark cloud was when the former owner was advised of what had occurred, he stated that he had cautioned his son-in-law several times not to fly at cruise power and pull the throttle back and dive for the runway. He obviously had done so a sufficient number of times to shock cool the cylinders resulting in the cracks and other damage. The former owner wrote us a check for 50% of the overhaul expense. Now there is a characteristic not often seen anymore. The point to this long diatribe-------HAVE AN IMPARTIAL IA DO A FULL ANNUAL INSPECTION before you finalize the purchase. Good luck!

[GAHorn]

Couldn't be further from the truth.

I disagree, what Mike said could be true depending on ones knowledge and skill. ....

I disagree with your disagreement.

Seriously, the difference is.... that Bruce had no liability in his opinion of the purchase. The IA who performed the last annual DOES. And the unairworthy items (such as incorrect prop or other items not meeting the TCDS or superceding approval) is on-the-hook to correct that error/oversight.

This conversation goes to prove that there are no experts. Good people sometimes make mistakes.
But GOOD people, and IA's with good reputations that want to KEEP those reputations should be requested to perform a FULL ANNUAL inspection... IF.. you truly want to determine the prospective aircraft's airworthiness.

If you don't care too much about airworthiness and legality and the inspector's integrity... then don't waste your time on an annual (which has legal ramifications) OR a "pre-buy" (which has no definition or legal responsibility associated with it.)

[T. C. Downey]

The IA who performed the last annual DOES. And the unairworthy items (such as incorrect prop or other items not meeting the TCDS or superceding approval) is on-the-hook to correct that error/oversight.

Show me that in any regulation or FAR .

[GAHorn]

The IA who performed the last annual DOES. And the unairworthy items (such as incorrect prop or other items not meeting the TCDS or superceding approval) is on-the-hook to correct that error/oversight.

Show me that in any regulation or FAR .

(I knew you'd jump on that.)

In posting that, I was referring to the fact that the IA who signs off on an annual inspection is certifying that the aircraft meets it's TCDS or an approved modification. If the IA made that testament and missed the fact that the aircraft did NOT ....then he has a problem with the authority (FAA) and also a legally enforceable liability to the person who hired him to perform that inspection.

I'm not saying he has to PAY for bringing the airplane into compliance (which is what I suspect you are jumping onto)...but he has an enforceable obligation to the contractor (purchaser who contracted with him to perform the inspection) for his defective inspection, and he likely has to answer to the FAA which may result in fines and/or other enforcement, not to mention his loss-of-reputation as an inspector.

On the other hand, a "pre buy inspector" has no legal responsibilitywhatsoever because the "pre buy inspection" has no legal definition and no relationship to any approval basis.

[T. C. Downey]

The IA who performed the last annual DOES. And the unairworthy items (such as incorrect prop or other items not meeting the TCDS or superceding approval) is on-the-hook to correct that error/oversight.

Show me that in any regulation or FAR .

(I knew you'd jump on that.)

In posting that, I was referring to the fact that the IA who signs off on an annual inspection is certifying that the aircraft meets it's TCDS or an approved modification. If the IA made that testament and missed the fact that the aircraft did NOT ....then he has a problem with the authority (FAA) and also a legally enforceable liability to the person who hired him to perform that inspection.

I'm not saying he has to PAY for bringing the airplane into compliance (which is what I suspect you are jumping onto)...but he has an enforceable obligation to the contractor (purchaser who contracted with him to perform the inspection) for his defective inspection, and he likely has to answer to the FAA which may result in fines and/or other enforcement, not to mention his loss-of-reputation as an inspector.

On the other hand, a "pre buy inspector" has no legal responsibilitywhatsoever because the "pre buy inspection" has no legal definition and no relationship to any approval basis.

Unless you have a legal contract stating who is responsible for what, you'll never get any court to assign liability.

The best question you can ask your inspector is simply "what will it cost me to get it annulled at your facility in 12 months", and get it in writing.

[T. C. Downey]

Most people forget what the purpose of a pre-buy is. It is simply to determine if the aircraft is worth the asking price. It has nothing to do with the airworthiness of the aircraft.

I bought my 170 because it was worth the asking price, and it had been in storage since 1992 with out preservation, and I could tell it was worth the asking price with out any inspection. all I wanted to see was that it had logs, a clean title, and a proper data tag.

The annual does not tell you as a buyer what you really need to know, things like does it have liens against it ?? does the radios really work? has it ever had accidents in it's history? an annual will not tell you if it is priced right. Just because it has no discrepancies, does not mean the price is right.

[GAHorn]

Most people forget what the purpose of a pre-buy is. It is simply to determine if the aircraft is worth the asking price. It has nothing to do with the airworthiness of the aircraft....

That clarifies why you and I often disagree on this matter, Tom. I disagree thoroughly.

The "pre buy" is a totally UN-defined and UN-enforceable "agreement" between a potential buyer and someone who professes to know something about airplanes. It has no legal or enforceable definition. Further, FEW "inspectors" know anything about VALUE. The inspector is not the person putting up the money and is a horrible person to determine value.

The value of the object is between seller and buyer and is a purely subjective matter... unless one can determine the objects suitability for it's purpose. Airplanes are supposedly suitable for flight as long as they are airworthy.

An ANNUAL inspection determines the AIRWORTHINESS of the aircraft. It's the ONLY inspection which will serve that purpose. I can't imagine why anyone would buy an unairworthy airplane, unless they want yard-art or a work project... and people who are looking for yard-art and work projects don't need inspections at all beyond their own capabilities.

[wingnut]

Can I just choose to agree with everyone on this topic?

[wingnut]

I don't disagree with any of the above post. I agree with most everything said, but maybe for different reasons. I have never felt that the pieces of paper I carry in my bill fold have anything to do with my capability. The important thing here is that the prospective buyer is provided as much information about the aircraft as possible, and that this buyer chooses a person with the experience/knowledge on the type of aircraft to provide a complete "picture" of the aircraft history and condition (not just a snapshot). It does not take an AP/IA to do this. I do agree an ANNUAL inspection should be performed, but more importantly and annual in accordance with the manufacturers checklist AND a good experienced person will also have some additional checklist items for aircraft type/model.
Having said all this, I believe an IA should be employeed to carry out an inspection, and everything documented on a Big Chief, with a #2 . If the buyer declines, there is no sense in garbing up the current owners logs with an unairworthy signoff. At this point, it just became a courtesy inspection for both parties

[daedaluscan]

Agree? Wheres the fun in that?

I just bought my first ever aeroplane and chose to have the guy who would do the import for me into Canada do the prebuy. He treated it as the annual that he would do to import it and I paid once.

Given all the above there is a certain amount of unknown in any deal, and at some time or another you just have to go or not go for it. Who can honestly say that they bought a boat, a plane a car and didnt really start to learn about it once they owned it. There are bound to be a few surprises, maybe even some good ones.

I definitely agree that buying the best thing you can afford is the cheapest way to a nice aeroplane though, let the previous owner pay for the work and buy it for cents on his dollar.

I love my 170, I have gone through a second annual without surprises and I am getting to know the plane. I even got to fly it twice today - how lucky am I?